If Not Hell then what?

[The Reality Salesman01]

Whoa, keep in mind...I'm not arguing that God has ANYTHING. I'm just saying that if anyone is to say that God has ANYTHING, as a property of Him, and they also assert that God's potential is unlimited, to imply any sort of limit to WHATEVER they assert to be one of His properties, that is a contradiction. If ones capacity to be benevolent has limits, then yes, in that sense it is an example of a limit placed on an ability possessed by a supposed limitless being. That would be a contradiction.

What makes you say benevolence is a capacity and not a choice?

I think I see what you're saying. There doesn't have to be a limit to one's ability to choose benevolence in order for them to have an infinite amount of opportunities to choose malevolence instead. Is that right? So, anyone could really be infinitely benevolent, and yet continue to demonstrate it.

I guess the question is...
1)For every malevolent choice, is their an opposite benevolent option?

2)And if so, what is to be said of an individual that chooses manevolence more often when a benevolent option is available?

3)What then would be the reason for such a thing to NOT be an option, and if one is the all powerful God, why would this be outside their ability to make it so?

[Undeceived]

What makes you say benevolence is a capacity and not a choice?

I think I see what you're saying. There doesn't have to be a limit to one's ability to choose benevolence in order for them to have an infinite amount of opportunities to choose malevolence instead. Is that right? So, anyone could really be infinitely benevolent, and yet continue to demonstrate it.

I guess the question is...
1)For every malevolent choice, is their an opposite benevolent option?

2)And if so, what is to be said of an individual that chooses manevolence more often when a benevolent option is available?

3)What then would be the reason for such a thing to NOT be an option, and if one is the all powerful God, why would this be outside their ability to make it so?

The Bible wouldn't call either option 'malevolent' or 'benevolent' but rather justice and mercy. God has a choice to be just/fair or to be merciful/unfair. Do you mean to talk about the Biblical God or another hypothetical one?

[Drich]

1. The sort of non-answer which results from a lack of thinking.

I agree.
As I am not making the God of the bible up as I go along, I am not
privy to 'think up' answers to satasify every question you may want to
ask. I am "Speaking where the bible Speaks." In doing I have no biblical based answer to give you here as there is no
reason given as to why the wages of sin are death.

That said I did speculate that there are far reaching consenquences of
sin that maybe we can not understand or see beyond what we already
know.

2. That just proves that he desires and enjoys death. He didn't
make death the payment for sin because he had no other choice;

If I were God I would make Death the payment for sin simply
because I would not want unrepentant people intermingling with those
who did seek attonement.

how could an omnipotent being be subject to necessity?

Why do you assume that he was? Are you still working of your
failed understanding that God is omni benevolent to all of Humanity?
Again God's love is boundless for those who Love Him with all of their
being and have A/S/K for understanding and forgiveness. God chose
Death for those who do not seek eternal life.

The only explanation left would be that he wants people to
suffer death, and the only explanation why is because the death of men
gives him pleasure.

The only consequences of sin which should matter, to a
believer, is what consequences they have on God.

Sin corrupted 1/3 of the population of Heaven's angels, and as a result
forever changed the dynamic of every sentiant being's interactivity
with God forever. I would say that there is an effect on God, just
not in the way you intend to frame it.

Obviously, they can have none, right? He could not actually be
harmed or in any way put out by sin. Sin cannot be a threat to him in
any way.

One does not have to be under threat to experience the consenquences
of the actions of another person. Lets say you had a member of your
house hold who had a gambling problem. Not a bad one, just bad enough
to where they consumed 80 to 90% of your family's disposable income.
Meaning all of your bills get paid, but there is nothing left over at
the end of the month. (Not under any sort of threat) Even so, How long
do you think you could live under a situation where one member of the
house hold was consuming all of the combined resources that was
intended for the whole family? This person's sin against the family
causes everyone to suffer. Now imagine if resolving this issue would
be as simple as not going to poker night or bingo night or whatever,
but the effect person would not even though everyone suffered for it?
What if you borrowed alot of money (sacrificed) toget this person help
and they refused? What if their actions cost your son his life? yet
they refused to even be appologetic let alone make an attempt to
address their sins?

Even after all of this, you experience no threat to yourself, but your
partner will not even consider seeking any help you offered. Do you
still say that one can not be affected by the non threating sins of
another?

What is it, then? It offends his pride.

Why do we put people in Jail? Is it because of our pride? No, We put
people in jail because they have demonstrated that they can not live
in a soceity bound by rules. So they are locked away from those who
can be productive members of soceity to prevent them from corrupting
or preying on everyone else.

God looks at sin the way an abusive husband looks at his wife
when she tries to think or do for herself. Like the abusive husband,
God reacts to this with anger and revenge. I often wonder why
Christians have such miserably poor standards of goodness and
perfection, that they would worship a being like this.

Again How does God differ here than what we have done in our prision
systems? After all you personally benefit from prisions now. What do
you say we do with convicted prisioners? Forgive them and let all of
them Go?

But, I do have that outside perspective.

No you don't
you are bound to sin like everyone else. Therefore your perspective is
like that of everyone else. What you think you have has been
identified by Christ 2000 years ago as Self Righteousness.

And now I see what it really means. After all, sin is nothing
but saying no to God. Sin is not inherently or objectively bad. There
are many evils which are not sins, and many harmless acts which are.
So, what am I? A good man? Maybe. Not completely. I have my faults and
my shortcomings. My standard of goodness is alien to you, however,
because I live in the real world and care about real world things. I
care about humanity, while your religion holds mankind in utter
disdain. I want humanity to mature and achieve, you anxiously await
your prophesied end of the world and the deaths of everybody.

Wow, I pointed to your 'feelings' as self righteousness, before I read
all of this.. Now my assessment has been confirmed.

The one who lacks perspective is yourself, deluded by the idea
that not only is there an objective set of right and wrong actions,
but that your god is the source of that objectivity. This is, no
doubt, why you have previously made it clear that atrocities committed
by God's command are good actions.

How are God's actions
differ from your own? In your self righteous manifesto you take on the
authority and mantle of God for yourself descerning what is right and
what is wrong, juding all of creation by your own standard.. Yet when
God does this very thing it some how becomes immoral in your eyes...
Can you explain why God does not have the authority to be God, but
somehow you do.

Do Christians see themselves as evil people? No.

Is this what you seriously think? If Christians do not see themselves
as evil then why has any of us sought attonement/Forgiveness of our
sins? Paul in Roman 7 even points out his inablity to seperate himself
from from his evil desires. If Paul can not help but to be evil then
what hope do any of us have?

They love their God and see what that they do in God's name as
something like a cleansing that needed to happen in order for them to
find favor with their God. Just like every major religion had done up
to that point in history.

This is where your understanding of
History, Religion and Christianity has failed you.

Why can't you ever answer that question? Does God enjoy seeing
blood spill?

Yes, Blood is required to pay for sins

So, you admit, then, that God is not loving and merciful?

If God was loving and merciful to everyone why or rather how could He
send anyone to Hell? That must mean God is Loving and merciful to
those in whom He consideres to be His Children, and to Hell with
everyone else. (literally)

Why is violent extortion considered a righteous act by
Christianity?

Begging the question.
We are not being extorted. We are all on a train speeding to Hell. We
were all born on this train. What God has done is to provide a way off
of this train for anyone willing to walk through the exit He has
provided. He makes no one leave the train those who want to stay are
welcome to stay, but for those who do not want to ride the train to
it's final destination He has provided a way off the train.

Infact I can demonstrate everything God says in the bible to be
true. (As we have previously ) The only problem is if I take all of
the steps needed to show you want you want to see it would be too late
for you to do anything about it. (You would be dead)

All that prevarication says to me is that you are a liar making
false claims. Put up or shut up.

The only way I have to
proove any of this to you is to kill you, there by sending you to the
afterlife to see it all for yourself. But again as I said if I do that
it will be too late for you to do anything about it. If you are still
wanting me to put up or shut up All I need is an address and a reason.

That is why I suggest that you A/S/K as Luke 11 outlines. For
if God shows you what is on the other side you might get a ride back
so you can put into practice what you have learned.

I already told you, I A/S/Ked and I did find the truth, which
is to say, I found nothing.

Not according to Luke 11 you did not. For the example Christ
leaves us in Luke 11 has the A/S/K'er repeating that process till he
gets what he is looking for.

---

Well, that is a conundrum, considering that your god ordered the Israelite army to do the EXACT same thing over and over again.

No he didn't. Read what I wrote again. "What if God did not want to spend ETERNITY with..." 'Those people.'

When your god ordered the babies cut from the bellies of the women of Amelek and Samaria did both mother and child get a pass into heaven or is that only reserved for the people who do the cutting?

The cutters

Your answer is given in the question: Your god has literally SURROUNDED himself with murderers and rapists since his debut with the Hebrew. If anything, opening the doors of Heaven to all the atheists would provide a lot more non-killing, non-bigoted, forgiving type [/code]of souls in Heaven. Sure, you'd get the occasional horrible atheist, but on average, allowing non-believers in would actually CLEAN UP the joint.

Because there is nothing wrong with the act in of itself. Rape and 'Murder' is considered sin when not authorized by God. Again as per your wonder biblical examples prove Rape and murder are only sinful acts when we take it upon ourselves to do these things without direction from God.;^)

Most atheists feel that you can't hate something you don't believe in.

'Most atheists' don't know what they believe in. 'Most atheists' are hoping the banner of non belief will buy them mercy on the day of their judgement , That is why 'most atheists' will argue christian theology rather than ignore and dismiss, similar claims attributed to posiden or thore.

Absolutely ... or rather he would have, if he had bothered to reveal himself to the ENTIRE world.

You mean to you personally don't you? Because He Did this very thing 2000 years ago, and to every believer since.

The point is Drich, you will never EVER have a leg to stand on as long as you continue to use the Bible as your sole backing argument.

What are you taking about 10% of what I do here forces you all to go back to the bible for 'proof.' The Lion's share of my work is to get you to A/S/K for yourselves so that you can Experience God one on One. That is how 90% of those in Heaven will have gotten there. The bible is a fairly new construct. The gift of the Holy Spirit is what saves people, is what gives people proof of God, is what answers your questions. I have said over and Over A/S/K for the Holy Spirit as out lined in luke 11, because for me the Holy Spirit gave me understanding and knowledge of God long before I understood the bible.

---

Yes, but its not by definition. Its only what is inferred if such a thing is implied.

then your task became very simple; Show me where it is stated in the bible that God is who you have represented Him to be. If you say God is Omni benevolent then show me Book Chapter and verse God is Omni benevolent to everyone as you have stated.

Go is limited by logical absolutes which are apart from my understanding of anything at all. My understanding is only a way for me to recognize a claim that lacks validity. It is invalid apart from my understanding of it.

You are skipping ahead. First YOU must establish "The Claim" in which you speak, demonstrating that it is from the bible speaking of the God of the bible.

No. He is either unlimited or limited. Which is it? My definition of unlimited is not at all skewed by any opinion. Limit or No-Limit. It's not me that places this value to this entity you defend. It either is or isn't.

The bible does not define God as unlimited.. Nor does it define Him as limited.. God Calls Himself the Alpha and the Omega. The beginning and the End. What does this mean? It means what every God wants to do He has the first and last word in doing it. (What ever it may be.)

For truly limitless power comes with the ablity to limit one's own abilities. Which makes God's actual title far more powerful than saying God has 'unlimited power.' Why? Because again with 'unlimited power' one is bound to the paradox in which one is demanded to always choose the course of action that defines limitless power. When in fact being the Alpha and the Omega simply says God has to the absolute power to do what He wants when He wants even if it means limiting Himself in a given situation.

Drich, your representation or the bible's...doesn't matter. They are still subject to certain logical contengencies. But in an attempt to not put words in your mouth, I would like to offer you the opportunity to make a specific claim about just 1 (so that we may have a manageable figure) of God's properties/attributes. Make it in a manner you believe consistent with The Bible's representation. I will not challenge the consistency. I am not concerned with it.

Are you not speaking of the God of the bible??? The only way you should not be concerned about the bible when speaking of God is when you've made up your own version of Him. Allowing you to attack the strawman/deity as you will.

I am interested in the claim. Where you get it only matters if its verifiable. If it is NOT, then it is only the claim that need be assessed according to its logical value. Not my opinion of value, its logical validity. There's a difference.

Your turning out to be a waist of time. So, you only want to discuss 'the claim' but not the actual claim, your understanding of said claim that has absolutely nothing to do with what is actually recorded in the bible. Then you want to discuss what a joke you believe God to be, but not the God of the bible your strawman version of God. One that you know how to attack and dismiss???


There is no need to go any further than this. for if you have no intrest in discussing what the bible actually says, then I have nothing more to say to you. After all what can I say if you only want to discuss a god of your own creation and a hell of your own design??? I guess your right about all of it.

Just let me know when/if you think your ready to discuss what the bible actually says

---

[quote='downbeatplumb' pid='441151' dateline='1367844169']
So he can't just go poof and we disappear there is a process, probably with some forms and a factory.

Why would he 'poof' someone out of existance when there is a debt to be paid?

I don't remember signing anything.

Are you saying you remember signing everything you have ever signed?

Do you remember being born? Do you remember your conception? No?!?!? Does it mean it did happen?

[The Reality Salesman01]

The Bible wouldn't call either option 'malevolent' or 'benevolent' but rather justice and mercy. God has a choice to be just/fair or to be merciful/unfair. Do you mean to talk about the Biblical God or another hypothetical one?

The type of word describing the act is really just an aside. The questions remain the same. I mean to ASK about the biblical God. I'm trying to get information from anyone that claims to know. Lets see what our buddy Drich has to say...

---

I am interested in the claim. Where you get it only matters if its verifiable. If it is NOT, then it is only the claim that need be assessed according to its logical value. Not my opinion of value, its logical validity. There's a difference.

you only want to discuss 'the claim' but not the actual claim, your understanding of said claim that has absolutely nothing to do with what is actually recorded in the bible.

My understanding isn't necessary. If you claim to understand and are able to speak on The Bible's behalf, all we need is that in order to have a good discussion. That would prevent me from creating straw-men, at least in that sense. I thought it would be a respectful way for us to discuss the God you are defending, and not the one that I represent in a manner you feel to be distorted. No?

Then you want to discuss what a joke you believe God to be, but not the God of the bible your strawman version of God. One that you know how to attack and dismiss???

Whether or not I find your God character funny is quite irrelavant. What I want is to nail down exactly what God you are defending as there are no 2 claims alike. If I wish to engage you with a debate, I must understand what it is you are actually arguing for. It was a cordial offer.

There is no need to go any further than this. for if you have no intrest in discussing what the bible actually says.

But, that's what I asked YOU. You claim to know what the Bible says. If i were to make a claim, that would more than likely be your rebuttal-That I don't know what the bible says. But, if you can present the information on God's behalf or the Bible's (especially since that's what YOU are defending), then we will have a solid topic. An interpretation of both God and The Bible that represent your exact views. That sounds like the absolute fairest way to continue this accurately without me misrepresenting your views.

then I have nothing more to say to you. After all what can I say if you only want to discuss a god of your own creation and a hell of your own design???

I hope that at this point you see that you couldn't have misunderstood my intentions more.

I guess your right about all of it.

Right about what? Neither of us will be right or wrong. It's not a debate about that. We are just trying to figure out if a certain claim is more likely to be true, than it is to be false.

Just let me know when/if you think your ready to discuss what the bible actually says

Drich, surely you've realized that I don't believe anything the bible says to be true. You are defending it. Why would I tell you my interpretation of what I read as a means of disputing your interpretaion? I've made a decision different than yours. If you wish to defend it, It is your interpretation alone that matters. Secondly...

"what The Bible actually says" may be one of the most controversial topics in the world, next to determining why we would even care about it in the first place. So, to save time and pointless arguments over details our situation can be simplified.

Drich- Believes in a God, and a Bible. Drich understands what he believes to be an accurate interpretation of both. Drich believes both to be true.

TexasSailor-Does not believe in God or a Bible, TexasSailor has yet to hear an interpretaion of either that he believes to be true.

You see how there's nothing else that really matters in this debate? It's just me and you here home-sclice!

[Drich]

My understanding isn't necessary.

Actually your understanding is the whole point of this discussion

If you claim to understand and are able to speak on The Bible's behalf, all we need is that in order to have a good discussion.

Have you not been reading any of this thread? 90% of the arguments here are based on what a 'non believer' believes about God Heaven and Hell. The bible almost seems irrelevant to most of the people who have chimed in.

That would prevent me from creating straw-men, at least in that sense. I thought it would be a respectful way for us to discuss the God you are defending, and not the one that I represent in a manner you feel to be distorted. No?

Let's see if you can stick to this model

But, that's what I asked YOU. You claim to know what the Bible says. If i were to make a claim, that would more than likely be your rebuttal-That I don't know what the bible says. But, if you can present the information on God's behalf or the Bible's (especially since that's what YOU are defending), then we will have a solid topic. An interpretation of both God and The Bible that represent your exact views. That sounds like the absolute fairest way to continue this accurately without me misrepresenting your views.

Then when the bible is quoted or I reference scripture you can not default to 'I don't care what the bible says."

hope that at this point you see that you couldn't have misunderstood my intentions more.

There is nothing to misunderstand. I represent biblically based Christianity and if you want to remove the bible from the conversation then the conversation ends.

Right about what?

If you remove the bible and what it says about God, then your right about what you think about god. Why? Because the god in which you speak is one of your own design, as such you have the power to make him out to be who ever you want him to be.
If it is your god you are right about how ever you want to represent him.

Drich, surely you've realized that I don't believe anything the bible says to be true.

If you want to have a discussion about the God of the bible then despite what you personally feel about the bible, you are bound to it when speaking of God.

Just like if you and I were Going to have a discussion about the Avengers issue 152. despite that you saw the movie, or despite what else you read if we are discussing the contents of issue 152 of the Avengers, then it is by that issue of the comic we are bound.

Like wise if you wise to talk about the God of the bible or Heaven and Hell that the bible mentions we are bound to what the bible says whether you believe it or not.

That means if at any point in the discussion you put on the brakes and say "I don't care what the bible says." then there is nothing more for me to discuss with you, because at that point we are now discussing your version of God, Heaven or Hell. To which I am not interested in discussing.

Drich- Believes in a God, and a Bible. Drich understands what he believes to be an accurate interpretation of both. Drich believes both to be true.

TexasSailor-Does not believe in God or a Bible, TexasSailor has yet to hear an interpretaion of either that he believes to be true.

You see how there's nothing else that really matters in this debate? It's just me and you here home-sclice!

That is why I ended the conversation in my last post. I was trying to say both of us several hours of going around in circles

[The Grand Nudger]

No one is bound to your silly little story when speaking about god or gods. Why on earth would you think this? What an absurd statement. "If one wants to discuss the mayfair witches one is bound to quoting Anne Rice"

(still beating the drum I see)

[Drich]

No one is bound to your silly little story when speaking about god or gods. Why on earth would you think this? What an absurd statement. "If one wants to discuss the mayfair witches one is bound to quoting Anne Rice"

(still beating the drum I see)

If you are not discussing Anne Rice's Mayfair witches then what your discussing is refered to as fan fiction. Which is fine if both parties wish to go off on a tangent that put the mayfair's in various situations and speculate what the characters may or may not do in a given situation. That said both people in that discussion should know that unless they are discussing the characters or plot points in Anne Rice's orginal triology (or anything else she has written about this subject) They are not actually discussing Anne Rice's stories of the Mayfair witches.

The same is true here. If you are not using the bible to frame out your discussion of God or anything the bible discusses then you are not actually talking about the God of the bible, nor the Heaven/Hell the bible mentions. You have wandered off into" Fan fictions." Which are not limited to atheist views. Other fan fictions include but are not limited to Major brands of Christianity.

[The Grand Nudger]

I can see why the bible has you so constipated, you never developed a love of fiction as a medium. You can talk about supernatural narratives, witch stories, just stories, plain and simple-anything related whatsoever - and still be referring to the mayfair witches. Yes, you can even talk about the fan fiction - or the society in which the fan fiction arose and why.....and still be talking about Anne Rice's book.

Fucking christ......

Other brands - in truth the same brand, are "limited to" god stories of any stripe. Notice the quotes, I'm humoring you, because they aren't limited at all. Perhaps if you weren't so intentionally myopic the narratives would offer more than a tyrannical celestial dictator which has you scared shitless. Just a thought.

[Norfolk And Chance]

Leave them be.

Leave them be what? Dead?

Yes. That sounds great.

Bring on oblivion.

[Cinjin]

Well, that is a conundrum, considering that your god ordered the Israelite army to do the EXACT same thing over and over again.

No he didn't. Read what I wrote again. "What if God did not want to spend ETERNITY with..." 'Those people.'

You read what YOU wrote. Your god is already spending eternity with the kind of people you referenced. You want to rephrase it now, that's fine, but my statement is valid .... even with your brilliant come-back, "nuh-uh."

When your god ordered the babies cut from the bellies of the women of Amelek and Samaria did both mother and child get a pass into heaven or is that only reserved for the people who do the cutting?

The cutters

"I sure hope my mansion is next to the soldiers of the Israelite army in Heaven. I've always wanted to be surrounded with the love of god's personal butchers."

Your answer is given in the question: Your god has literally SURROUNDED himself with murderers and rapists since his debut with the Hebrew. If anything, opening the doors of Heaven to all the atheists would provide a lot more non-killing, non-bigoted, forgiving type [/code]of souls in Heaven. Sure, you'd get the occasional horrible atheist, but on average, allowing non-believers in would actually CLEAN UP the joint.

Because there is nothing wrong with the act in of itself. Rape and 'Murder' is considered sin when not authorized by God. Again as per your wonder biblical examples prove Rape and murder are only sinful acts when we take it upon ourselves to do these things without direction from God.;^)

You're right, what was I thinking. It's not sin at all. In fact I'm sure you would have no problem with one of the Hebrew soldiers telling you that his god was smiling down on him as he killed your wife, gutted her unborn child like a fish and took your eldest daughter home to rape her into submission. "Deal with it Mr. Samarian Drich. Our god doesn't give a shit about you, and better yet he's going to reward us when we get to heaven and cast your heathen wife into hell." You want proof?!? Well too damn bad!! Our god only reveals himself to us personally and you're just going to have to take our word for it." Tell me Drich, do you think its morally wrong if an Arab army raided your home town and told you that his god told him to stick his righteous dick in your wife and daughter? It would seem that if they won, they clearly had the correct god on their side. Sounds righteous to me. Right? Can't be any sin when god tells you to do it, right? After all, morality is solely decided by the god of the prevailing army correct? What?! You don't like someone using the name of god to do those kinds of sinful things?!?!

Filthy fucking immoral christian apologist.

Your "work" here has done far more damage to your god than you can possibly comprehend.