Ok.....So you killed off Religion...

[ronedee]

I dunno? What's your take on that?

There would probably be some collective anxiety for a while, but I think human resilience would eventually persevere. Of course, there would be some that panic at the thought of not having a god, and even some that go on mass crime sprees, perhaps even violently.

I think ultimately, however, humanity would discover that all of the things they had attributed to their deities were simply inside of themselves all along. You have to remember that if a god were proven non-existent, that would mean that it would have never existed and humanity had been propping itself up the whole time.

I think of the god concept as being analogous to my two year old's pacifier, not in a derogatory manner, but in the sense that he thinks he needs it and can't imagine life without it, however, once he goes long enough without having it, he will realize that he is fine, despite its absence.

Thanks for your serious reply! You make a very interesting point!

"...humanity would discover that all of the things they had attributed to their deities were simply inside of themselves all along."

Jesus said, "..the kingdom is within."

So, can we agree that God is essentially "good", and that our natural instinct is to be that way?

I think the pacifier analogy isn't deep enough though. God is tied to our being in an emotional way, not physical.

I would venture to say that its more like my teenagers breaking away from the family nest, and certifying their adult-hood. But, in each case they have made their way back to us!

We can try to move away from God, but if He is instilled in us as "good" and "moral" then we are connected. This is self-evident, because God is essentially thought of as good.

And to say that "religious" speak for God is like saying Atheists speak for everyone that doesn't believe in God!

I've met many murderer's in my career.... Most weren't religious fanatic's. Actually, they seemd to be indifferent to any idea of whether there is a God or not! Nothing inside....just nothing!

And there we have "one" answer: Indifference, and no opinion is worse than "something". We (you & me) may have our differences, but we have some conviction for our lives.

So, we as a people (united in morality) need to connect with our kids, and more importantly the "throwaways" in our society. Before its too late.

It may already be too late!

---

You make numerous assumptions about how others come to hold the beliefs they do but seem singularly unreflective as to the origins of your own. This is a recipe for becoming an irrelevant old blowhard. Trust me, you don't want to be that guy.

LOL! Thank you for your constructive criticim and mild admonishment! Point taken...but I do have a lot of life experience. And when someone puts the proverbial rose colored glasses on I get a little mad...and I went to a good, friends untimely funeral and was a little down and out!

I like you!

[pocaracas]

"...humanity would discover that all of the things they had attributed to their deities were simply inside of themselves all along."

Jesus said, "..the kingdom is within."

So, can we agree that God is essentially "good", and that our natural instinct is to be that way?

I'd go with... god is essentially "human nature", "common sense"....

Yes there will always be people who go against that. There will always be people who cannot live in society.
And yes, there are people who find it easier to live believing in the other world... If they didn't have that other world... I don't know, maybe they'd spend more time online, or playing games... other worldly stuff... but not that other world.

[Faith No More]

Jesus said, "..the kingdom is within."

So, can we agree that God is essentially "good", and that our natural instinct is to be that way?

No, I think our natural instinct is to survive, and due to our evolutionary path, what you have labeled "good" has become quite beneficial to our survival as a whole. You have then recognized these genetic instincts and incorrectly attributed them to a god.

I think the pacifier analogy isn't deep enough though. God is tied to our being in an emotional way, not physical.

My son is also tied to his pacifier in an emotional way. He desires it, because it is comforting. The only difference is that what he is tied to is a physical object and not a concept.

I would venture to say that its more like my teenagers breaking away from the family nest, and certifying their adult-hood. But, in each case they have made their way back to us!

But did they need to, or did they simply desire to? Would they have been okay on their own?

We can try to move away from God, but if He is instilled in us as "good" and "moral" then we are connected. This is self-evident, because God is essentially thought of as good.

What you have here is simply a metaphor for those evolutionary benefits I mentioned earlier.

[Zarith]

Seriously, argument from morality again? Why the fuck do Christians always think they have the moral high ground? Your made-up book promotes all sorts of horrible shit and weird ass ideas.

Secular morality will come from people. Just like your morality. Only these will be people that have some sort of clue as to how the world works, as opposed to iron age people wandering in the desert wondering what the fuck is going on.

[CleanShavenJesus]

nicely dodged. You really are a pro at avoiding legitimate responses. Perhaps instead of attacking him for a perfectly legitimate comparison, you should address the logical fallacies in your own assertions. Just sayin'.

I did not dodge anything a stupid statement deserves such an answer. Besides that what I said is true. As for your description of the verses what's the age limit on them.

A stupid statement? What I said was a classic example of something that would be considered correlation, but not causation. Which was exactly the kind of thing you posted. But you wouldn't acknowledge it. Either you're not bright enough to realize what you said was ridiculous, or you're pretending you don't notice.

[Ryantology]

A stupid statement? What I said was a classic example of something that would be considered correlation, but not causation. Which was exactly the kind of thing you posted. But you wouldn't acknowledge it. Either you're not bright enough to realize what you said was ridiculous, or you're pretending you don't notice.

As I recently discovered, you can only push Godschild so far before he just goes

[Minimalist]

Why the fuck do Christians always think they have the moral high ground?

Because they think their fucking god gives them a license to be cunts.

[Anomalocaris]

...hypothetically of course!

Maybe 50 or 60 years from now when science finally proves that all of you are right and there is no God..... and religion dies out for you!

Where as a society will the moral compass come from? Considering of course you even want a moral society?

Will it be: Laws? hmmmm...who will instill these laws? Teachers? Police? Parents? Military? Government Agencies?

Will it be community groups? Say like: Acorn? YMC...whoops....Boys & Girls & Gay clubs? Planned Parenthood? The cities or states?

Or will it be just every "being" for themselves, and NO LAWS? Total FREEDOM! WOW!! Freedom to do ANYTHING!! And no one to tell you differently!

I'm just wondering what it will be like in "Your Perfect World" w/o God & religion?

Let us see where the moral compass points in a world w/o God?

Let's see where this leads, will you?

Science proves there is no god. ie, there was never any god. There was no god even when you thought there was a moral compass from god.

ie. If god is proven to not exist, then such moral compass as did exist mustn't have come from god. No?

So, This means moral compass as did exist must have been man made and duplicitiously misattributed to an bogeyman called god for effect, by men. Understood?

If primitive goat fucking desertmen who beat their wives and rape their children can make one moral compass impressive to you, admittedly one so shabby that it didn't prevent its wife beating makers from lying through their teeth to give their creation a falsely impressive vintage, Modern men of a better sort then your biblical frauds can certainly make another. No? Being forcefully deprived of the god myth, men would actually be forced to make a better, more truthful moral compass, don't you think?

[Mystical]

Yeah uh ronedee if you want a serious answer.. try not being such a cunt about the asking. I pegged you as a flamer long ago. Youre mad at the wrong people, b. And fyi you sure do have quite a bit of hostility to work on, for claiming to be a Christian. Try looking in a mirror and come back when you've acquired some fucking humility.

[DeistPaladin]

Ronedee,

John V has pointed out to me that it's too much work to click on a link and then use the quote function to respond to the previously posted arguments, so I'll go one step further for the Christian's convenience:

*copy/paste*

1. (Perhaps most important) Theistic morality confuses the issues of what morality is and what is moral.

By its nature, religion will be concerned with gaining more followers and gaining increased obedience with its established followers. This is why when you read through the Bible or Koran, often what is described as "evil" are such victimless crimes as idolatry, blasphemy and apostasy. Other moral issues and labeled "abominations" have to do with failure to adhere to rituals and traditions, like not working on the Sabbath or not eating certain kinds of food.

Read the 10 commandments if you don't have time to read the whole Bible. You'll notice that the first four, the one's that Yahweh thought of first and foremost, have to do with religious adherence and not real moral issues. A few deal with how we treat others (don't murder, don't steal, etc) but the majority prohibit victimless crimes. This muddying of the waters is not helpful to our understand of what is moral or what morality is.

By contrast, secular morality focuses on the issue with laser-like precision. Morality is a function of how we treat our fellow sentient beings.

2. Theistic morality provides an "easy out"

When you do wrong in theism, you pray to a god to forgive you or perhaps perform some useless rituals of penance that do nothing to clean up the mess.

When you do wrong as a secularist, you apologize to those you've wronged and seek to make direct amends.

Jesus sacrificing himself on a cross and other blood sacrifice rituals do nothing to clean up any messes.

Newt Gingrich is a great example of how twisted this system of morality and atonement is. He says he doesn't have to answer for his adultery despite being a professed "family values" politician. Jesus forgave him and that's that. Has he apologized to any of his ex-wives?

3. "GodWillsIt" is not an answer

Just as "GodDidIt" doesn't satisfy our curiosity about science, "GodWillsIt" does nothing to help us understand morality. This is an appeal to authority, little better than "Cause I said so".

Compare this with secular morality where things labeled "wrong" or "evil" are activities that involve a victim. Morality can be explained in terms of such useful tools as "the social contract" or in term of our sense of empathy and community. Saying, for example, that slavery is wrong because it violates the rights of others and we would not wish to be treated this way is far more elucidating than "cause big daddy in sky says so".

4. Euthephro's Dilemma

Does GodWillIt because its good or is it good because GodWillsIt?

If GodWills what is good, than goodness exists outside of and independent to God. That which is evil would thus remain so without God.

If things are good in accordance with what GodWills, than this is little more than a might-makes-right system of justice. The rules are just as arbitrary as with any human imposed system. Therefore, GodWillsit wouldn't solve the problems Elunico frets over.

Apologists, typical of their style when in a conundrum, try to make it "both and yet neither". They babble about goodness being ingrained in the very nature of their god. Beyond the fact that this is a bare assertion, it's also viciously circular. "We know that God is good because God is good and so we know that God only wills what is good because God is good."

5. Read the damn Bible already!

Yahweh can't seem to answer no-brainer moral issues that humans have long since solved. Issues like rape, slavery and genocide are ones that Yahweh can't seem to provide a correct answer to.

6. Christianity is a dangerous belief system

Any religion that proposes a good god vs. evil devil system is going to demonize any who are not part of the religion. By process of elimination, any who do not serve the defined good god must be in league with or at least duped by the devil. If you believe your enemy is in league with the devil, you are capable of doing anything to him.

Worse, any religion that proposes a faith-based scheme of salvation is going to push atrocity. After all, if killing a few heathens saves thousands of souls for all eternity, isn't that a good thing. The stakes are as high as they can be if there's a real danger of your children going to Hell for all time. No wonder Christianity has such a violent history.

7. Look at the results

Secular societies do not explode into a fireball of mayhem and murder when they lose their religion. Quite to the contrary, social studies have shown that crime rates fall along with teen pregnancy and other social indicators show that secular societies are happier and better adjusted.

Neither do individuals lose their morality when they lose their religion. I can tell you this from all the ex-Christians I've known.

Hope this helps you in your efforts to respond to my previous arguments on this subject.