Posts: 5598
Threads: 112
Joined: July 16, 2012
Reputation:
74
RE: Why we need a mandatory living wage:
August 30, 2014 at 5:43 am
(This post was last modified: August 30, 2014 at 5:45 am by Ryantology.)
(August 29, 2014 at 10:31 pm)CapnAwesome Wrote: Maybe instead of trying to plunder money from the rich we should all focus on being happy and learning to live with less. Eventually everyone will have to anyway.
This is also the sort of attitude that plutocrats love to instill in people: the idea that by insisting that we get paid a living wage for the work we do is 'plundering' from the rich. We should just sit down, shut up, and and let the rich get richer off the sweat of the workingman's brow.
Posts: 9176
Threads: 76
Joined: November 21, 2013
Reputation:
40
RE: Why we need a mandatory living wage:
August 30, 2014 at 8:36 am
Given the way the homeless are treated at times, the poor really can't afford to just live like third world people in a first world society. Granted I would have more money if I just lived out of a van instead of a building, but I'd have to be discreet about it.
Posts: 4659
Threads: 123
Joined: June 27, 2014
Reputation:
40
RE: Why we need a mandatory living wage:
August 30, 2014 at 9:08 am
(August 30, 2014 at 5:43 am)Ryantology (╯°◊°)╯︵ ══╬ Wrote: (August 29, 2014 at 10:31 pm)CapnAwesome Wrote: Maybe instead of trying to plunder money from the rich we should all focus on being happy and learning to live with less. Eventually everyone will have to anyway.
This is also the sort of attitude that plutocrats love to instill in people: the idea that by insisting that we get paid a living wage for the work we do is 'plundering' from the rich. We should just sit down, shut up, and and let the rich get richer off the sweat of the workingman's brow.
Being paid a decent salary should be the norm - Taking money from the rich and making the rich poorer won't solve society's problems, but few people actually defend that - No one really wants to take everything away from the rich Robin Hood style, they'd still have lots of wealth
Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you
Posts: 9176
Threads: 76
Joined: November 21, 2013
Reputation:
40
RE: Why we need a mandatory living wage:
August 30, 2014 at 9:11 am
We don't want to make the rich poor. We just want to take enough money that everyone is middle class or better, instead of a handful of people having billions of dollars and a good chunk of the population being poor. Depite working full time jobs.
Posts: 4659
Threads: 123
Joined: June 27, 2014
Reputation:
40
RE: Why we need a mandatory living wage:
August 30, 2014 at 9:15 am
(August 30, 2014 at 9:11 am)Chad32 Wrote: We don't want to make the rich poor. We just want to take enough money that everyone is middle class or better, instead of a handful of people having billions of dollars and a good chunk of the population being poor. Depite working full time jobs. That's something I disagree substantially - I don't think just taking away money form A and give it to B is the solution - It's economically unproductive at most - Instead raising the legal minimum wage would solve the problem from scratch. Perhaps I think like this because I defend the type of society where everyone can survive by themselves - Not by taxing other people - It doesn't mean a little bit of welfare is bad, it isn't, but fixing all problems (in this case America's, I'm not American so I might be wrong) by simply taking more from the rich is a sign of econ illiteracy, only someone who likes utopias would defend that.
Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you
Posts: 9176
Threads: 76
Joined: November 21, 2013
Reputation:
40
RE: Why we need a mandatory living wage:
August 30, 2014 at 9:39 am
(August 30, 2014 at 9:15 am)Blackout Wrote: (August 30, 2014 at 9:11 am)Chad32 Wrote: We don't want to make the rich poor. We just want to take enough money that everyone is middle class or better, instead of a handful of people having billions of dollars and a good chunk of the population being poor. Depite working full time jobs. That's something I disagree substantially - I don't think just taking away money form A and give it to B is the solution - It's economically unproductive at most - Instead raising the legal minimum wage would solve the problem from scratch. Perhaps I think like this because I defend the type of society where everyone can survive by themselves - Not by taxing other people - It doesn't mean a little bit of welfare is bad, it isn't, but fixing all problems (in this case America's, I'm not American so I might be wrong) by simply taking more from the rich is a sign of econ illiteracy, only someone who likes utopias would defend that.
I didn't mean to say just give everyone a million dollar check. I'm talking more like raising the minimum wage, increasing taxes on the rich, probably not taking any taxes at all from people who make under a certain number, and such.
I would expect everyone to like utopias. It's the ideal society. Even if a true utopia is unachievable, trying to be as close to perfect is the highest of goals.
Posts: 4659
Threads: 123
Joined: June 27, 2014
Reputation:
40
RE: Why we need a mandatory living wage:
August 30, 2014 at 9:46 am
(August 30, 2014 at 9:39 am)Chad32 Wrote: (August 30, 2014 at 9:15 am)Blackout Wrote: That's something I disagree substantially - I don't think just taking away money form A and give it to B is the solution - It's economically unproductive at most - Instead raising the legal minimum wage would solve the problem from scratch. Perhaps I think like this because I defend the type of society where everyone can survive by themselves - Not by taxing other people - It doesn't mean a little bit of welfare is bad, it isn't, but fixing all problems (in this case America's, I'm not American so I might be wrong) by simply taking more from the rich is a sign of econ illiteracy, only someone who likes utopias would defend that.
I didn't mean to say just give everyone a million dollar check. I'm talking more like raising the minimum wage, increasing taxes on the rich, probably not taking any taxes at all from people who make under a certain number, and such.
I would expect everyone to like utopias. It's the ideal society. Even if a true utopia is unachievable, trying to be as close to perfect is the highest of goals.
Close to perfect is not an utopia, it's a possibility, there lies all the difference - I disagree with tax exemption, either everyone pays or no one does, if someone wants to receive benefits, let's say from HC or social security, they have to pay taxes even if it is 1$/€, it's not much and it is still not bad, better than nothing - Saying a certain category of people shouldn't pay taxes is discriminatory because they'll be having benefits without contributing.
You can rise taxes on the rich, but I'm not sure that would actually work, for a variety of reasons - IMO it is more productive (in Europe this would be my solution) to let the rich be rich but lower a lot the taxes on the poor - That would let them breathe, in Europe the poor pay lots of taxes - And progressive taxes do NOT work over here because there is always a way to pay less. A professor of mine suggested a proportional tax, very simple, EG everyone pays 5% taxes, equal to everybody - And the rich still pay more, since 5% of 100000000€ is more than 5% taken from 10000€. That's the tax I want - It is equal and no one gets discriminated, IMO both regressive and progressive taxes are discriminatory and do not work.
Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you
Posts: 7140
Threads: 12
Joined: March 14, 2013
Reputation:
72
RE: Why we need a mandatory living wage:
August 30, 2014 at 9:52 am
(This post was last modified: August 30, 2014 at 9:52 am by Tonus.)
(August 30, 2014 at 9:15 am)Blackout Wrote: It doesn't mean a little bit of welfare is bad, it isn't, but fixing all problems (in this case America's, I'm not American so I might be wrong) by simply taking more from the rich is a sign of econ illiteracy, only someone who likes utopias would defend that. I think the issue in the USA is that there is a belief that capitalism is best in its "pure" form, where there are clear winners and losers. This breeds an ideology that says that if you're struggling, you're a loser. This breeds a further rationalization that those who lose do so by choice, which means that those who "win" are under no obligation to assist them.
We're a very wealthy nation that can easily afford to modify our economic system to make sure everyone is cared for, without having to grade them on how deserving they are or aren't. I am a strong believer that there are opportunities all around us, and most of what we lack is the will to seek them out and take advantage of them. But that doesn't mean we adhere to an all-or-nothing approach to socio-economic issues.
We can afford to take care of everyone, and I believe that doing so is far better for us in the long run. However it is done, either via a sufficient hourly wage or a minimum living wage for all, it is worth it to do so.
"Well, evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don't go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's in this century, but apples didn't suspend themselves in midair, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape- like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered."
-Stephen Jay Gould
Posts: 67044
Threads: 140
Joined: June 28, 2011
Reputation:
162
RE: Why we need a mandatory living wage:
August 30, 2014 at 9:52 am
(This post was last modified: August 30, 2014 at 9:53 am by The Grand Nudger.)
(August 30, 2014 at 9:15 am)Blackout Wrote: I defend the type of society where everyone can survive by themselves - Not by taxing other people - We don't live in such a society, the rich cannot survive by themselves (none of us can, truth be told) - and they do tax the shit out of other people. Sure, lets get to that self sufficient society somehow, someday - but in the interim.........
Quote:It doesn't mean a little bit of welfare is bad, it isn't, but fixing all problems (in this case America's, I'm not American so I might be wrong) by simply taking more from the rich is a sign of econ illiteracy, only someone who likes utopias would defend that.
As has been said, no one's talking about taking money from the rich. We're talking about limiting how much money the rich can extract from society.....lol. Raising minimum wages. Taxing the trucking companies that -use- the highways at a greater rate than we tax John Q (we already do this, btw, but it's fractions of a penny overall) for maintenance on the infrastructure they require to operate. Charging companies, in an extreme example, the full price of their operations. Costs involved in site cleanup, the full range of work load on water purification - again, infrastructure costs. That's a negotiating chip we use to entice business.
Right now, the absurd distribution of wealth is only an indicator that a particular segment of our populace is paying next to nothing on the full costs of their investments. We are subsidizing -their- lifestyle with welfare on the grandest possible scale. The poor are minority recipients of a marginal fund bundled within the larger actionable bills.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Posts: 9176
Threads: 76
Joined: November 21, 2013
Reputation:
40
RE: Why we need a mandatory living wage:
August 30, 2014 at 9:53 am
I just figure if you're struggling just to live, then any tax is just another burden piled on other burdens. Not that I'm some major or minor in economy. I do realize that a 5% tax on everyone still leaves the rich paying more than the poor, but if you're making less than $10,000 a year, then 5% will make a bigger difference than if you're making over $10,000,000 a year.
|
