A simple challenge for atheists

[The Grand Nudger]

As opposed to god, or "no-thing"? "God is immaterial" :waves hands:. You know...it's probably not quite that easy, eh?

[bob96]

As far as something from nothing goes, atheism is a lack of belief in deities. That's it.

So the question then is, can a material thing in our universe come into existence from nothing without God putting it there?

[Mudhammam]

As far as something from nothing goes, atheism is a lack of belief in deities. That's it.

So the question then is, can a material thing in our universe come into existence from nothing without God putting it there?

Holy simplicity!

[Losty]

As far as something from nothing goes, atheism is a lack of belief in deities. That's it.

So the question then is, can a material thing in our universe come into existence from nothing without God putting it there?

If god is no thing then how do you know it is capable of putting any thing any where?

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So the question then is, can a material thing in our universe come into existence from nothing without God putting it there?

Holy simplicity!

You forgot to say batman.

[The Grand Nudger]

So the question then is, can a material thing in our universe come into existence from nothing without God putting it there?

Can it come into existence -with- "god" -putting it there-? How might that be accomplished? Following Losty's lead, if god is no thing, how -can- some thing come from no thing?

[bob96]

Imagine an alternate universe which contains a single hydrogen atom. (Lets not include dark matter or other forces in the discussion for the purpose of simplicity.) You could replace the atom with a proton, a neutron, a sub-atomic particle, or a string. The point is, it's real. It can be measured.

Now where did this hydrogen atom come from?
Was it just always there?
Did it spontaneously appear, ie. magically?
Did someone create it?

How did it come into being?

How should I or anyone know where stuff comes from in your fantasy alternate universe which you just made up??? That's a nonsensical question. Can you try to reword it or emprecision it a bit to make it answerable?


P.s. Wooohooo Post #3000!

ok, good point.

Can some material thing come into *our* universe from nothing without God putting it there?

[The Grand Nudger]

Is god in our universe? How did -he- get here? That might give you some suggestion as to how other things got here.

[Silver]

Is god in our universe?

He exists as a figment, concept, in the minds of believers. Does that count as being in our universe?

[psychoslice]

I don't think there is such thing as nowhere in the cosmos.

[bob96]

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Imagine an alternate universe which contains a single hydrogen atom. (Lets not include dark matter or other forces in the discussion for the purpose of simplicity.) You could replace the atom with a proton, a neutron, a sub-atomic particle, or a string. The point is, it's real. It can be measured.

Now where did this hydrogen atom come from?
Was it just always there?
Did it spontaneously appear, ie. magically?
Did someone create it?

How did it come into being?

It's very simple.

Firstly we all know Einstein's famous equation



This very clearly shows us that all matter in the universe is essentially energy since

energy = mass (times the speed of light squared)

So, we can comfortably get to the concept that all 'matter' in the universe is actually just a form of energy. (If you'd like to really get into this part then you need to read up on the Standard Model).

Now the only question you have to answer is where does energy come from?

You could adopt the position similar to that put forward by Lawrence Krauss (as most physicists who have expressed an opinion in this area do), which is entirely predicated on the notion of quantum vacuums, which, he points out, are inherently unstable. This gives us the idea of a universe from nothing, all be it a very qualified idea of a universe from nothing. But a QV is not 'nothing', it is teaming with quanta popping in and out of existence (as we know it). So, in effect all Krauss has really done is provide us with a new, slightly more scientific definition of 'nothing'.

More recently two physicists, Jonas Mureika and Dejan Stojovic, have proposed a more radical rethink of the early universe and proposed that rather than the super dense matter at the beginning, the Universe actually began with fewer dimensions, namely one. It then acquired another to make two and then another to make three, and so on. If this is correct then theories of spacetime as an emergent property of sub atomic systems makes more sense, and that spacetime geometry (and hence space and time) are also intrinsically linked to energy, so we don't even have to have 'time' or any kind of 'expansion' at the beginning of our Universe to make it work, just an increase in potential energy.

This would also explain why we must have the seemingly arbitrary 'speed of light', as it would be the maximum potential energy in a 3 dimensional space-time geometry. Change any of these factors and the equation is broken and the energy passes out of our perceived universe (dimensionally), leaving us with the perception that nothing travels faster than the speed of light.

It would also explain why the speed of light is part of the mass/energy equation in our 3d universe and why it appears in Einstein's equation (no, time is not a dimension before anybody mentions it).

Bingo!

All matter is potential energy. Therefore nothing is required to get the Universe started, especially not some kind of god.

MM

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Thanks for the first reasonable answer.