A simple challenge for atheists

[Chas]

There are even different sizes of infinities. There are countable, such as the integers, and uncountable infinities like the real numbers. Uncountable ones are "bigger".

It's used all the time as a concept in mathematics. And it works. It doesn't mean we have to go count out infinite stones for our abacus.

I seem to remember the terms Aleph-null, Aleph-1, ad nauseum? Think it was in a book called White Light by Rudy Rucker?

Yes, aleph-null (or aleph-nought), aleph-one, aleph-two, ad infinitum.

[SteveII]

So you are saying that if it weren't for the Roman Empire, Christianity would have died out? That is an interesting analysis since it persecuted the church for the first 300 years.

Um, no, all that "throwing the christians to the lions" shit was mostly made up, stories of brave christians not breaking their faith under torture that were adopted as part of the religious cultural consciousness of the time, but were fictional no less. You can read all about it here, but something tells me you won't.

I could post 10 links on articles criticizing her premise and conclusions by scholars. For the sake of argument, for the first 300 years, the Roman Empire did not foster the growth of Christianity. So, the question remains, why does Christianity survive til today when so many other religions cease to exist?

I never got an answer from you as were the ancient Egyptians irrational.

[Foxaèr]

So, the question remains, why does Christianity survive til today when so many other religions cease to exist?

Because people are too ignorant to recognize it as the mythology it is.

[Michael Schubert]

Imagine an alternate universe which contains a single hydrogen atom. (Lets not include dark matter or other forces in the discussion for the purpose of simplicity.) You could replace the atom with a proton, a neutron, a sub-atomic particle, or a string. The point is, it's real. It can be measured.

Now where did this hydrogen atom come from?
Was it just always there?
Did it spontaneously appear, ie. magically?
Did someone create it?

How did it come into being?

According to the laws of Thermodynamics, matter cannot be created or destroyed, so no one created the Hydrogen Atom.

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So, the question remains, why does Christianity survive til today when so many other religions cease to exist?

Because people keep it alive by reading and believing the Holy Bible.

But if you think that's evidence for God's existence, you would be making the Appeal to the Majority Fallacy.

[Esquilax]

I am sure you have read the NT. Can you find anything to support your claim that Christianity is about money? I think the teachings on greed and self-sacrifice are pretty clear.

Yeah, like I said, it's easier to get people to accept the weird concept of tithing if you first pepper your narrative with a bunch of stuff your audience already wants to hear. Stop thinking in these absurd binaries and actually read what I'm saying: you can't say that the church isn't about money, when such a big part of the process is tithing, why the bible says that not tithing is robbing god, and that it curses you to abstain from it. For all this talk of greed and self sacrifice, your religion then turns around and says "also, pay the preachers ten percent of your money, or god will get so pissed at you that he'll curse you."

It's also why so many religious figures who have so-called visions of the afterlife end up having god conveniently tell them to stress the importance of tithing. The bible might be full of one message, but the church is full of money, just waiting for the tithe-demanders and apologists to take it.

Do you think it wrong for me to assess whether someones actions mirror that of the teachings in the NT and then say they were not behaving like a Christian.

If you're assessing someone based on the NT, are you also taking into account how many slaves they own? Because Jesus was totally cool with owning slaves... or is that bad to you anyway?

See, you already decide what does and doesn't count as part of the NT yourself, which leads me to ask: how do you know your interpretation of the bible fits with the author's original intent? And if you can't tell me that, why should I care what your opinion of christianity is?

I could post 10 links on articles criticizing her premise and conclusions by scholars.

Well then isn't it fortunate for us that you didn't bother to do that at all, and instead just asserted that they exist, as though "rebuttals to what you say exist," is itself a rebuttal. That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence, dude: either put up, or shut up. But given that you definitely hadn't read the book in the time between when I posted the link and now, chances are that you're entirely unaware of its content, and are just assuming it's all wrong on faith, without even knowing what it is you're disagreeing with.

For the sake of argument, for the first 300 years, the Roman Empire did not foster the growth of Christianity. So, the question remains, why does Christianity survive til today when so many other religions cease to exist?

Seriously, why do you think that "just take what I say as true anyway, even after I've been proved wrong," is a cogent statement?

I never got an answer from you as were the ancient Egyptians irrational.

They had an irrational belief, just as you do. That doesn't mean they were entirely irrational from top to bottom: do you think you could do me a favor and stop constructing these ridiculous, snappy strawman binaries and instead address what's actually being said, in future?

[downbeatplumb]

Feels pretty good!

Yup. All fuzzy inside.

I like to feel superior to people and the feeble arguments of theists helps in this, one of the reasons I come here is to meet people like Steve so I can have a good laugh.

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I could post 10 links on articles criticizing her premise and conclusions by scholars. For the sake of argument, for the first 300 years, the Roman Empire did not foster the growth of Christianity. So, the question remains, why does Christianity survive til today when so many other religions cease to exist?

Christianity was a niche religion until the largest Empire in the ancient world adopted it and forced everyone to convert.

There were the campaigns of extermination of rival religions and even other Christian sects.

The ruthless repression of non-believers, the fines and executions for not going to church.

The stigma of being an atheist or jew or whatever in close minded people.

Oh and never underestimate human stupidity.

I never got an answer from you as were the ancient Egyptians irrational.

Well of course the ancient Egytptians beliefs were irrational, have you read what they believed? it was just as crazy as Christianity.

What they did do however was use religion to meld a common mindset that helped found their empire allowing for a strong leader.

[SteveII]

So, the question remains, why does Christianity survive til today when so many other religions cease to exist?

Because people are too ignorant to recognize it as the mythology it is.

That's very insightful. So you are saying that Christianity is a little more tricky to discern the mythology than other religions were.

How about this: The Judeo-Christian worldview still fits the framework of facts we have discovered over the last 3000 years.

Was it just lucky that those sneaky church fathers built on the God of the Jews and thus avoided all the unpleasantness of chariots riding across the sky, child sacrifices to get some rain, or whatever pagan belief would be easily refuted by science?

While the scientific understanding of the world changed over time, the actual words in the OT/NT have never come down on the wrong side of science. Of course you are going to bring up creation. Augustine thought that the 6 days of creation were symbolic in 400 AD (way before Darwin). Anticipating that certain passages would be problematic he writes "In matters that are so obscure and far beyond our vision, we find in Holy Scripture passages which can be interpreted in very different ways without prejudice to the faith we have received. In such cases, we should not rush in headlong and so firmly take our stand on one side that, if further progress in the search for truth justly undermines our position, we too fall with it."

[FatAndFaithless]

How about this: The Judeo-Christian worldview still fits the framework of facts we have discovered over the last 3000 years.

While the scientific understanding of the world changed over time, the actual words in the OT/NT have never come down on the wrong side of science.

Are you really just throwing out random assertions without having the faintest idea of how they might be wrong?

[The Grand Nudger]

Was it just lucky that those sneaky church fathers built on the God of the Jews and thus avoided all the unpleasantness of chariots riding across the sky, child sacrifices to get some rain, or whatever pagan belief would be easily refuted by science?

Probably would have been lucky if they had avoided any of that, sure....but they didn't, so I don't see the relevance?

[robvalue]

The bible is the biggest load of crap this side of the big bang. Probably the other side too. Utter load of nonsense.

Sorry buddy. It's no for realsies, its ancient ramblings. You'd see that if you looked at it objectively. The fact that you're now claiming it is supported by science is scary.