Hell and the Play Nice Christian

[watchamadoodle]

I wonder if Pascal's wager could be enhanced to handle these?:
- present value of distant future returns (a bird in the hand...)
- non-equal infinite returns (my hell is hotter than your hell)
- many non-exclusive religions
- many exclusive religions

[The Reality Salesman01]

oh, nevermind...

[robvalue]

You're slapping around an atheist there :p Well, an apatheist. We were playing silly buggers.

[The Reality Salesman01]

Yeah, I had to edit my post. I noticed that I completely overlooked the fact that the post was sopping with sarcasm...


Sorry Chad!

[YGninja]

Let's assume that the God of the bible is a real thing and then let's try to see whether or not it would be reasonable to attribute supreme intelligence to it.

Let's assume that it's really important to this God that we find our way through this material world some day arriLet's assume that the God of the bible is a real thing and then let's try to see whether or not it would be reasonable to attribute supreme intelligence to it.

Let's assume that it's really important to this God that we find our way through this material world some day arrive in heaven. Let's assume that he'll is also a real place and, at minimum, it's not a nice place to end up.

In order to get us to heaven and avoid Hell, God writes us some directions and puts them into a book. If we follow this book correctly, then we will get to where he wants us to go.

Before attributing SUPREME intelligence, let's consider whether or not this God is intelligent by human standards.

If my son were taking a trip cross-country, and I didn't want him to get lost, I'd make him a map. Along with the map, I'd give him instructions. It's important to acknowledge that I could make a perfect map and give very perfect instructions but, if the level of instruction does not match my sons ability to comprehend it, there's still a chance he could get lost. So, to ensure that my son finds his way, I use clear and plain speech. I am very specific and succinct. I don't use any ambiguous terms and make sure he comprehends the instructions.

Example: "continue on HWY 64E for 3 miles and then take EXIT 29A toward Richmond"

If he happens to get lost, he can stop at several places along the way and confirm that the directions I've given him are correct and that he is still on the correct course.

My son will either arrive at the destination, or he'll get lost.

If he gets there it will be due to a combination of two factors.

1) My directions
2) His ability to comprehend and follow them

If my son gets lost, the same is true.

If the bible were instructions on how to get from here to heaven, and they were written by a supreme intelligence. Our ability to make it heaven or not would still depend on the same things. If we get lost, either the directions were poor or they were beyond our ability to comprehend them.
What we have with the bible is quite interesting. Some people believe they are right on track and others think the entire map is bogus. The people who believe they are on the correct course cannot even verify among one another that they've followed the directions correctly and none of them can point to any real substance in the map that would compel anyone else to join their excursion.
Given that education is so widely available and that we all share a comparable capacity for basic instruction comprehension, there isn't any reason to expect that these directions lead anywhere with any degree of certainty when you consider the disparity between the incompatible Christian interpretations alone.

Conclusion:

If God is real, he is either:

A) omniscient with a supreme intelligence but doesn't really want everyone to be able to follow his map.

Or

B) Wants us to find our way to heaven but he is an incompetent direction-giver with intelligence that is low even for modern human standards.

The most reasonable conclusion is that none of it is true, and the multitude of different maps with ambiguous instructions all containing innumerable inconsistencies is exactly what you could expect if you convinced a bunch of gullible people to follow a bunch of ridiculous and incompatible maps...

The knowledge of God, and his laws, is put into your heart. Whether you follow them or not is entirely at your discretion. The Bible isnt the map, rather just an explanation of it.

[FatAndFaithless]

Ah, so even us, as atheists, know god exists, and we're simply rebelling willfully?

[robvalue]

What about all the genocide? What does that explain? Be on the right side of me, motherfucker or I'll kill you and your whole city and rape your virgins.

I wouldn't put stuff like that on a map for a kid.

North 5 miles, East 3 miles, FUCKING KILL EVERYONE GUTS RAPE, Northeast for 2 miles and you're home.

[YGninja]

You've not produced anything 'countervailing'.

Indeed I have. You've waved it away with semantics, and haven't answered my rebuttal.

Here, here's some more of your divine word which you're choosing to ignore:

Matt 25:46:

Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.

Mark 9:43:

If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out.

Jude 1:7:

In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

Clearly hell is eternal punishment. I could go on, there are many more verses making this clear, but I don't care to shit up this thread with quotes from the Bible. You can go read your own holy book, and then if you wish to discuss it return to this conversation, because you clearly haven't read it thoroughly and digested its import, nor has Lek, and nor has any Christian who thinks that Hell is not an eternal punishment.

Business as usual, with you theists.

Absolutely none of this supports eternal torture.

Matt 25:46 - Their punishment is eternal because their death is final. For eternity they will not live again.

Mark 9:43 - The fires are eternal

Jude 1:7 - The fires are eternal

[Godscreated]

Not a bad answer, just one you do not like to hear. You nor anyone else chooses hell, we're born to it. The real choice is Christ and only through Him is salvation possible.

GC

Babies are born to go to hell?

Not if they die before the age of accountability, that being different for each person, some never reach that age, the mentally handicapped for instance. This is why it's important to have children in church early in their lives. Please do not say some thing about indoctrination, that's a worn out subject and doesn't actually apply to this discussion, thanks.

GC

[FatAndFaithless]

Wow GC, that's some fucked up shit, yo.