Hell and the Play Nice Christian

[Godscreated]

Not a bad answer, just one you do not like to hear. You nor anyone else chooses hell, we're born to it. The real choice is Christ and only through Him is salvation possible.

GC

How can I "choose" something I don't believe exists? I get tortured for eternity for being wrong? That is evil beyond description. And you want to spend eternity with the agent of such evil?

I have news for you GC: If you are right, we live in a nightmare universe and it won't be any better for you than it will for me. The God you believe in is worse than anything imaginable.

If you say so, but we'll see, death is the great revelation of truth.

GC

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There will be an eternity of torment, not from God, but from the individuals that are there, they torment their own selves, this is how the sins of each will have there own consequences. This is how the torment of some will be far worse than others, they suffer because of what they have done individually. those in hell will be their own torment, God has nothing to do with that part, it's the individuals doing, crazy but fits the scriptures. You don't like it take it to God.

GC

I'd love to know which Bible verses say all that. It sounds made-up to me.

None directly do, I've explained this in detail before. All the things said about hell in scripture seem to fit what I believe and I clearly stated that. I also said I might be wrong.

GC

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The Christians that I know (and I've asked) don't believe in hell, and think that those that do are pretty fucked up.

How exactly do they square that with what's in the Bible?

They can't, if one part is wrong none of it should be trusted. There can be no reward if there isn't the opposite, this is justice.

GC

[Chad32]

The knowledge of God, and his laws, is put into your heart. Whether you follow them or not is entirely at your discretion. The Bible isnt the map, rather just an explanation of it.

If this were true, judaism/christianity would have sprung up all over the world, in cultures that had never encountered each other. Instead, these religiouns started in one place, and branched out from there. So no, knowledge of your god is no written into our hearts, and the bible is a very poor map that leaves its followers running around in circles while killing each other over misunderstandings and interpretations.

GodsChild, justice is not about reward and punishment. Even the most evil Humans know how to reward those who please them, and punish those who don't, if they have any sense. Justice is about intent, and equality. Any reward or punishment is proportional to the crime, and good and evil should be determined by objective means. Not because the strongest person says what he likes is good, and what he doesn't like is evil.

[ether-ore]

That's not as bad as the bulk of Christianity but still has a few fatal flaws:

The idea that someone must suffer for transgressions is very primitive. The need for revenge is a base emotion that can be overcome with intellect. If we can do it, obviously God can do it.

Since God is omniscient and creates everything, evil is all on him. You can argue free-will all you want but it doesn't matter. When God creates someone and gives him or her free-will, God knows exactly what he/she is going to do with it. Why create someone when you know that person is going to do evil?

If anyone deserves any amount of punishment, it's God.

Just a follow up response for the purpose of explaining my understanding of punishment. I understand that you put no stock in the scriptures, but in order to explain, I have to refer to them. I won't bother with citations because I feel that would be meaningless. But here goes...

Christ says that those who do not repent must suffer even as He suffered. I think most Christians consider what happened on the cross as the only thing that matters, but Christ suffered in Gethsemane as well, and this is important point to understand.

What I think and what I believe is that as Christ bled from every pore; what was taking place was that He was in the process of becoming immortal. Immortal beings do not have blood in their veins. What they do have, I do not know, but from all that I have read... it is not blood. For example, when Christ appeared to the Twelve after His resurrection, He said to them that "a spirit hath not flesh and bone as ye see me have." I consider it significant that He did not say "flesh and blood". With a thorough reading of the scriptures, one may see the difference.

When Christ was on the cross, He did not die from being hung there. He was immortal and could have hung there indefinitely, but He had to finish His mission for our sakes. He gave up His life of His own accord. One piece of scriptural evidence is that when pierced in the side by the Roman soldier with a spear; clear liquid is reported as having come out of the wound... not blood.

Here is the point concerning "punishment" those who do not repent will have to go through that painful transition from being mortal to immortal on their own without any help from God. If they had repented, the Christ's suffering would have negated that necessity and they would be changed "in the twinkling of and eye".

This may not have helped, but I wanted to offer an explanation as I understood it.

[watchamadoodle]

What I think and what I believe is that as Christ bled from every pore; what was taking place was that He was in the process of becoming immortal. Immortal beings do not have blood in their veins. What they do have, I do not know, but from all that I have read... it is not blood. For example, when Christ appeared to the Twelve after His resurrection, He said to them that "a spirit hath not flesh and bone as ye see me have." I consider it significant that He did not say "flesh and blood". With a thorough reading of the scriptures, one may see the difference.
...
One piece of scriptural evidence is that when pierced in the side by the Roman soldier with a spear; clear liquid is reported as having come out of the wound... not blood.

It sounds to me like Jesus was a reptilian. They're everywhere apparently.

[Esquilax]

The knowledge of God, and his laws, is put into your heart. Whether you follow them or not is entirely at your discretion. The Bible isnt the map, rather just an explanation of it.

Why do you think it's okay to tell us what we know and believe in one thread, when in another thread you derided me when you perceived that I was doing the same thing?

Can you say a single thing without proving yourself a hypocrite?

[The Reality Salesman01]

The knowledge of God, and his laws, is put into your heart. Whether you follow them or not is entirely at your discretion. The Bible isnt the map, rather just an explanation of it.

Surely you see the question that this raises...

There are billions of people on this earth. Some believe in God, and some give the voices in their heads different names. Ignoring the fact that this knowledge of God is indistinguishable from my own intuition, what do you say about the people in this world who claim to possess exclusive knowledge of a different God?

In Africa, where AIDS is one of the leading causes of death, I can say it's morally appalling when I hear that Catholic missionaries are teaching people of that country that condoms cause disease in order to prevent them from having safe recreational sex. They are telling people that AIDS is bad, but condoms are worse. That's the message they've interpreted from their God, and you've explicitly condoned this way of thinking as a path to a life that you believe to be more valuable than the earthly one we experience.

When a Christian protest group celebrates in front of a mourning family at the funeral of a dead soldier for being killed in a war their God did not support, what can you say to these people? They're doing what you've said to do...

When a martyr blows himself up while carrying out the instructions he found placed in his heart by religion of his culture, I can say that this person is delusional and has been brainwashed by a cult to interpret his own intuition as a divine message...

But my question to you is, without sounding like a complete hypocrite, what can YOU say to people who act on what they believe to be divine command when what they've done is in conflict with your own moral intuition? Can you point to anything wrong with what these people are doing and why it's demonstrably different than what you've just said? You've already granted credence to the act of labeling one's internal thoughts as divine instruction and you leave no criteria by which to distinguish holy commands from delusional ones.

What say you?

[Lek]

In Africa, where AIDS is one of the leading causes of death, I can say it's morally appalling when I hear that Catholic missionaries are teaching people of that country that condoms cause disease in order to prevent them from having safe recreational sex. They are telling people that AIDS is bad, but condoms are worse. That's the message they've interpreted from their God, and you've explicitly condoned this way of thinking as a path to a life that you believe to be more valuable than the earthly one we experience.

Come on. What's your source for this one?

[The Reality Salesman01]

In Africa, where AIDS is one of the leading causes of death, I can say it's morally appalling when I hear that Catholic missionaries are teaching people of that country that condoms cause disease in order to prevent them from having safe recreational sex. They are telling people that AIDS is bad, but condoms are worse. That's the message they've interpreted from their God, and you've explicitly condoned this way of thinking as a path to a life that you believe to be more valuable than the earthly one we experience.

Come on. What's your source for this one?

http://m.bbc.com/news/world-africa-22449314

http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/africa/03/...roon.pope/
I think this new pope is changing his mind on this subject, but the point stands. People did harm to other people and they did it while operating under the belief that their inner voice was divine command.

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Would you prefer that I refer to the protection of hundreds of pedophiles for the good of the church? The church they believe their God wants them to protect...there's really an endless supply of people doing these crazy things. The reason you can be catholic and still be disgusted is because of your individual moral compass. The same one that dismisses all the barbarism God ordered Moses to carry out. You do this because the morality in the bible comes from OUR intuition that recognizes the good from the bad. It has nothing to do with whomever you believed to have put them in there. No God needed.

[Esquilax]

In Africa, where AIDS is one of the leading causes of death, I can say it's morally appalling when I hear that Catholic missionaries are teaching people of that country that condoms cause disease in order to prevent them from having safe recreational sex. They are telling people that AIDS is bad, but condoms are worse. That's the message they've interpreted from their God, and you've explicitly condoned this way of thinking as a path to a life that you believe to be more valuable than the earthly one we experience.

Come on. What's your source for this one?

Here's a lovely billboard from a Catholic pro-life group situated in Tanzania, implying that condom use is fatal.

[The Reality Salesman01]

Thanks buddy. That one gets to my point in much fewer words. You're good at that.

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My guess is that it won't matter. I anticipate a swift lane change immediately followed by some special pleading...