General argument for Islam.

[pocaracas]

MK, that sounds a lot like Drich's A.S.K.... Ask Seek, Knock, and eventually god opens the door...

I still see only people telling others how to exploit their own mental shortcomings into deluding themselves even further.
I must say: it has worked wonderfully!
Doesn't mean that god exists for real... nor that those prophets and imams got their info from any god... just means they knew something about how human minds work.

My understanding is that we are all connected, and we just have to remember these truths which we always acknowledge in some form or another.  We believe in exalted nature of love, we believe in praise and value, we believe in ranks and that actions lower or raise our rank, all this the affair between the 7 heavens and the 7 earths, and to remember God and his Unity, and the place of meeting God, which his throne and chair that encompasses all things, is something we can see and remember. It takes vision. And also the hidden enemies and their spiritual attacks on us, from the uncleanness, and their touch is something we can witness as well. Then attack back with the divine sword of God, the sword of honor, which is truthfulness to ourselves and to God. Sure the exact number of 7 is something witnessed only by spiritual journey, but the descent of water/purity/mercy/blessings of God from the heavens is the nature of what have in our souls. "There is not thing but with us is it's treasures and we do not send down but in a known measurement". We can see this reality, "And in the (signs) in themselves, will they not see".

I know Atheists will not be convinced by this, but, you can't be telling me that this is circular logic. Is seeing circular logic?

From my point of view we just have to remember. As for the true path and guidance, I have to agree with Drich, if you seek the truth you fill find it, and Suratal Fatiha has that spirit of knocking on God's door. 

If you seek help from God's mercy, his goodness, his praise, instead of the lower desires and ignorance, and sought help from the divine pure forces in the soul, surely you will be guided, even if you are unaware of God to begin with. 

For it's the earthly nature we been created on, the humble nature, that truly raises on, although the fire with in us is important, the earth dust nature along with water is the foremost need to receive the light. 

God has made two purifiers, earth and water, these are two parables to the nature of the soul and the nature of the heavens and the earth. The fire of God is important, but it can lead us astray, if we don't observe the prerequisite of it. 

But it is a guidance as well:  "When he saw a fire, he said to his family: "Wait! Verily, I have seen a fire, perhaps I can bring you some burning brand therefrom, or find some guidance at the fire."

The trouble is that this is a mental trick that is being applied.
If you want to see something too much, you'll see it.
The power of suggestion is very strong, you see?... http://www.psychologicalscience.org/inde...worse.html

Across many studies, research has shown that deliberate suggestion can influence how people perform on learning and memory tasks, which products they prefer, and how they respond to supplements and medicines, which accounts for the well-known placebo effect.

But what can explain the powerful and pervasive effect that suggestion has in our lives? The answer lies in our ‘response expectancies,’ or the ways in which we anticipate our responses in various situations. These expectancies set us up for automatic responses that actively influence how we get to the outcome we expect. Once we anticipate a specific outcome will occur, our subsequent thoughts and behaviors will actually help to bring that outcome to fruition.

So, if a normally shy person expects that a glass of wine or two will help him loosen up at a cocktail party, he will probably feel less inhibited, approach more people, and get involved in more conversations over the course of the party. Even though he may give credit to the wine, it is clear that his expectations of how the wine would make him feel played a major role.

But it’s not just deliberate suggestion that influences our thoughts and behaviors – suggestions that are not deliberate can have the very same effects. As the authors point out, “simply observing people or otherwise making them feel special can be suggestive,” a phenomenon termed the Hawthorne effect. As a result, people might work harder, or stick to a task for longer. And this case is more worrying, says Garry, “because although we might then give credit to some new drug or treatment, we don’t realize that we are the ones who are actually wielding the influence.”

There is even a tale where a guy dies due to the power of suggestion: http://www.drmarthawatson.com/power-of-suggestion/

The criminal thought that his death sentence was clear. The scientist SUGGESTED to the man that he was going to open his carotid artery. The criminal was created to understand that his blood would be taken out by bleeding him to death on a marked day. On the schedule date the scientist had the criminal tied to a table with his eyes blind folded. The criminal’s ears were however left free with the intention so that he could hear everything that would take place.

In captivity of the prisoner the scientist took a needle and made a light scratch on the neck of the criminal and the scientist preplanned a small water tap that was dropping water into a bowl that was placed underneath the table. Silence prevailed as many watched. The criminal heard the water dropping sound from the tap and since he was blind folded, he believed that the terrifying sound was by his own blood flowing away from his body. The prisoner was left in that condition. The prisoner died within six minutes. Only a minor scratch was given and in fact not even a drop of blood emerged his body, but yet he died because he believed that his own blood was flowing out by hearing the droplet sound of the water tap. The prisoner strongly believed that his death was certain and in creation of his imagination so he died. Parallel is the relationship between mind and body.

ASK, or what you're proposing is nothing more than a suggestion. Implant a suggestion on a person's thoughts... then present that person with a sort of guideline on how to achieve a given result... and the person will tend to achieve it.
That's why you come to islam, Drich goes for christianity, Netanyahu goes for judaism, etc, etc...

It's often heard that atheists need to open their minds... the trouble is, most of us know about (or are minimally aware of) the power of such suggestions and purposefully keep them out. With no suggestion in mind, we should arrive at the most unbiased possible conclusion to any proposition we are presented.
And, as far as I can see, the most unbiased conclusion to the god proposition is that they are all made up by people.

A friend of mine has related this power on himself... another friend suggested that a particular pastry at a particular shop was the best in the world. So he went in a tried it.... not bad... actually very good... but the best in the world? don't know... then the question arose "have you ever tasted something better?" and he said "no." then it's the best in the world! and he agreed.
That's faulty reasoning right there. And it happens every day. And religions exploit it to their advantage... at this moment, the people involved are probably so far removed from the origin of the exploit that they are themselves unaware of it and are very likely also victims of it.

[Mystic]

From what I understand, we can have a bias and desire towards atheism as well. Can can desire there to be no gods. Or we can say "there is no higher spiritual knowledge" etc.

Although you are right about this suggestion thing, and we can deceive ourselves, at the same time, believing there is no beautiful wisdom and exalted wisdom, to say all that is delusion, doesn't seem to be totally non-bias as well.

Also, I can't speak for all people of Islam, I know a lot of people believe just because they are born in the religion and never gain knowledge to be of true faith, but look at here how much I left all assumptions:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7699661/

You guys remember how I began to doubt everything, even praise goodness value worth being true and not delusional concepts.

It's true a lot of people are bias but the ways towards knowledge are there still in my view.

---

By the way, I think we are having an awesome conversation here.

[The Grand Nudger]

From what I understand, it's the nature of this knowledge that makes this true. It's only true because God is true. Without this truth, there is corruption in the earth. "Say if there were there a god with god, then they (heaven and the earth) would be corrupted". It's due to the Oneness of God, the oneness of his beauty, the exalted nature of the origin of the highest, that we are reckoned with not acting according to this knowledge and just having in our mind, without teaching it to the soul.

b-mine
Then I suppose it's not true, since your god is a fairy tale...and all of a sudden the world is a shittier place...sigh. Cheap idea of truth, you've got there amigo.

Of course I believe in these words without knowing Imam Jaffar said these words. Misbahal Shariah has no chain, it's mursal book, but I believe in it due the wisdom in it.

Check the bolded bit above.....?  Due to the wisdom or only because of god?

[Mystic]

Check the bolded bit above.....?  Due to the wisdom or only because of god?

False dilemma. It's only wisdom due to God.

[The Grand Nudger]

That -is- the dilemma....jesus christ. How can that wisdom be exalted...there are plenty of things that are true regardless of the existence of a god, plenty of wisdom that does not hinge upon the truth of your favorite bedtime story...certainly those things must be the "exalted wisdoms"? If the only reason this shit is true, is wisdom, is because it's from allah...I'm sorry, that's not truth, that;s not wisdom.

Not to me.

[Mystic]

That -is- the dilemma....jesus christ.  How can that wisdom be exalted...there are plenty of things that are true regardless of the existence of a god, plenty of wisdom that does not hinge upon the truth  of your favorite bedtime storiy...certainly those things must be the "exalted wisdoms"?

You are not understanding. But this is a shortcoming on my part. Moses himself didn't think he can explain everything thoroughly and asked God help him with his brother Aeron because he was better in speech and conveying those truths. 

So who am I? I am no where near the intelligence of Moses and so how can I blame you for not understanding me. I blame myself. 

[The Grand Nudger]

-Or-, maybe I do understand, you haven't failed...and I just have higher standards?

[Mystic]

There is some wisdom like "it's better to drink water before you eat if you want to be healthier and not gain weight" or something like that, it doesn't hinge on God.

But not acting towards the knowledge of the hour being condemned like it is is due to the reality of God because it's due to relationship to him.

[Brakeman]

According to Webster,

wisdom


noun wis·dom \ˈwiz-dəm\
: knowledge that is gained by having many experiences in life
: the natural ability to understand things that most other people cannot understand
: knowledge of what is proper or reasonable : good sense or judgment

God does not convey practical knowledge to anyone, science does that.
God does not give the ability to understand anything practical, again science does that.
God does not give good knowledge as to what is proper or reasonable to make a good judgment, instead he only gives second hand commands through the poor venues of warlords and cult leaders. Furthermore the countries that claim to follow god's judgment are invariably horrible places to live which bears witness to the lie of benevolent control.

[The Grand Nudger]

Oh well, I have higher standards.  Neither of the statements you just offered seem like exalted wisdom..let alone wisdom with a little "w"...to me. You're being inconsistent, and you are not providing that which you claim to boot!