Hostage to fear

[Randy Carson]

First, if you believe I'm being condescending in this post... please hold out for the end.  My intentions were never to "please various people"... they were to save my wife and children from hell.  I never sought to please anyone except this god of Holy Scripture. ...period.

Okay. And I will ask you some very direct questions...not to criticize or accuse but to understand what your experience has been.

I don't think you can agree with me on a point I have not made.  I never made the point that belief is a choice.  On the contrary, I've made my opinion of the opposite very clear.

Then I misunderstood you when you said that the Bible says that belief is a choice. I thought you were agreeing - even though you have struggled. But okay...I understand now.

Acting as though I believe is contrary to what the values of your faith teach.  Lying is a sin, no matter your target.  I was lying to myself when I said, "I believe in Christ Jesus".  I acted as though I really thought I believed for many years.  I simply quit lying, to 1) avoid sin in my quest for theosis 2) live an authentic human experience.

I wanted to believe in Christ (as portrayed in Holy Scripture) more than I wanted my own life, if it could be sacrificed so that my children would have the faith I don't ... for their salvation.  I wanted my wife and my kids to reach heaven... and knowingly lied to them about what I "believed" for that reason.  I deceived my family to meet the demands of a god.  At the end of every day, there was something wholly wrong with that... if my god be "good" and "truth".

It sounds like you haven't been honest with anyone...yourself, your family, or God...up to this point. So, it must be kinda refreshing to finally admit how you really feel!

As an anti-Calvinist, I could not just attribute my lack of faith to determinism.  A deep study of theodicy (through Scripture, history, and authoritative ancillary texts) answered all the questions I needed answers to.

The honest and exercised answer is, yes, I was willing to follow Christ to the bitter end.  And I appreciate you trying to understand my experiences ... throw me in the fire for being wrong, but I take it you're younger than most apologists and have a decent liberal education... your honest empathy gives you away.

I'm 55, and I went to Georgia Tech, so I had a very technical education. But thank you...I think.  

Just out of curiosity, what denomination were you? I can't remember if I already asked that...sorry. I'm not sure what an anti-Calvinist is...seems like that would be just about everyone else! Were you Baptist or Presbyterian? It sounds like your experience was kinda "performance-based" - trying to please God - and not really based on knowing God's love and forgiveness. Or am I wrong?

Also, was the problem of suffering the first chink in your "armor" or the last straw for you?

[Randy Carson]

duplicate

[Spacetime]

I'm 55, and I went to Georgia Tech, so I had a very technical education. But thank you...I think.  

Just out of curiosity, what denomination were you? I can't remember if I already asked that...sorry. I'm not sure what an anti-Calvinist is...seems like that would be just about everyone else! Were you Baptist or Presbyterian? It sounds like your experience was kinda "performance-based" - trying to please God - and not really based on knowing God's love and forgiveness. Or am I wrong?

Also, was the problem of suffering the first chink in your "armor" or the last straw for you?

In light of what you've revealed about yourself, please, take that as a compliment! lol I know, a low blow... meant as a lightly as possible, given your frailty in age! JUST KIDDING!

In all seriousness, and to answer your questions;

I was raised in a non-denominational Church, and worked my way through the gamut of reformed theology. I found my Church in Iraq and Kurdistan, a land and people that has half of my heart. There I found Eastern Orthodox Catholicism. It is a long story, and without arguing point by point, the specifics of faith, this ...or the Church had (has) my heart. Here are a people, suffering for their faith, in real persecution. Here are the writings preserved from the earliest Christian Church as homily to the scriptures. Pleasing, working, impressing... all are antediluvian to the faith Christ taught. And I found that authentic faith in Orthodox Catholicism.

Given what Orthodox Catholicism is, I cannot defend personally... but I can as a shadow of itself, if you're interested. It's a really interesting faith. Worth knowing wholly.

The problem of suffering was the beginning of my faith (I am strongly focused on the human condition as a whole... from childhood), and also the first thing that lead to my deconversion.

Thank you for being forthright. You'll find no criticism here, as long as we meet as honest men.

[Godscreated]

As I started to investigate my own religion, I began to cast out doctrines like hell... because you have a very difficult problem with theodicy if you hold to it.  I then decided that the evil that occurs now is the most pressing issue if hell is out of the equation.  What use is my God if He doesn't intervene?  Therefore, God must not be a personal God.

I know the bible is not historically accurate, we can prove the documents are fables.  I know we have no evidence for the suspension of physical laws to allow for the possibility of miracles.  I know human biology doesn't allow for something like a virgin birth.

I just can't seem to give it up.  If I've cast out the doctrine of hell, you'd say I have nothing to fear.  I've drawn out all that I cannot hold to if I am going to hold to that which is true, there's nothing left.  Absolutely nothing.  My fear is entirely irrational.

My own Grandmother threatened me with hell.  A girl I liked in high school... I asked her "So if I don't believe in Jesus, but am a good person, I'm still going to go to hell?"  When she said "I'm sorry, but yes."  I literally burst into tears in art class.

Perhaps it's those experiences that still hold me hostage to the Church.  My Grandmother sends my children books that I have to go through to weed out the crazy shit.  I'm embarrassed and ashamed to tell this story, but my eldest boy toasted the end of the world in front of my atheist parents during their last visit before supper.  The reaction he got sent him into tears.  I, of course, comforted him.  I teach my children that there is no hell, but then he clings to the return of Christ when this loving God comes back to destroy the Earth?

It's all complete and utter bullshit.  But I'm so f'ing scared to denounce it for my children's sake.  I am programmed to not say anything bad about Christ.  I literally can't... and I've even tried.  I can even tell you honestly that I love Christ (seriously, no joke).  But when I look at these things critically, there's nothing left for me to hold on to.

Church has been so good for my wife and children, though.  I'm afraid of what my wife will think of me.  I'm afraid I would be taking something good away from them if I am openly agnostic.  I'm not incredibly smart or anything, but they look to me for standards of goodness.

If I go to the clergy with these thoughts, I'm afraid I'm only going to get more of the same.  That's why I'm posting here.  I could use a little unbiased encouragement, maybe, from someone who has been through the same thing.

The Holy Spirit is working hard with you, you will need to look to God to solve this, depend on your wife and children, if you do away with hell you do away with justice. Take this as you may it's all I have to say unless you ask me questions.

GC

[The Grand Nudger]

If you do away with hell you do away with justice?  That's fucking -retarded- GC.......justice exists (or doesn't) regardless of whether or not hell exists,.......justice and hell aren't even in the same ballpark....No one's waiting to sentence convicted felons on the basis of whether or not hell exists........not you, not me...not anyone.....

Why would you expect anyone to ask you a question, or defer to you as some sort of authority, after having dropped such a turd?

[Randy Carson]

I'm 55, and I went to Georgia Tech, so I had a very technical education. But thank you...I think.  

Just out of curiosity, what denomination were you? I can't remember if I already asked that...sorry. I'm not sure what an anti-Calvinist is...seems like that would be just about everyone else! Were you Baptist or Presbyterian? It sounds like your experience was kinda "performance-based" - trying to please God - and not really based on knowing God's love and forgiveness. Or am I wrong?

Also, was the problem of suffering the first chink in your "armor" or the last straw for you?

In light of what you've revealed about yourself, please, take that as a compliment!  lol    I know, a low blow... meant as a lightly as possible, given your frailty in age!  JUST KIDDING!

In all seriousness, and to answer your questions;

I was raised in a non-denominational Church, and worked my way through the gamut of reformed theology.  I found my Church in Iraq and Kurdistan, a land and people that has half of my heart.  There I found Eastern Orthodox Catholicism.  It is a long story, and without arguing point by point, the specifics of faith, this ...or the Church had (has) my heart.  Here are a people, suffering for their faith, in real persecution.  Here are the writings preserved from the earliest Christian Church as homily to the scriptures.  Pleasing, working, impressing... all are antediluvian to the faith Christ taught.  And I found that authentic faith in Orthodox Catholicism.

Given what Orthodox Catholicism is, I cannot defend personally... but I can as a shadow of itself, if you're interested.  It's a really interesting faith.  Worth knowing wholly.

The problem of suffering was the beginning of my faith (I am strongly focused on the human condition as a whole... from childhood), and also the first thing that lead to my deconversion.

Thank you for being forthright.  You'll find no criticism here, as long as we meet as honest men.

ST-

I'm going to post a few thoughts on the Problem of Evil/Pain/Suffering, and we'll see where this goes.

Thought #1:

Would you agree that there is a big difference in intelligence between us and a bear?

Imagine a bear in a trap and a hunter who, out of sympathy, wants to free him. He tries to win the bear’s confidence, but he can’t do it, so he has to shoot the bear full of tranquilizers. The bear, however, thinks this is an attack and that the hunter is trying to kill him. He doesn’t realize this is being done out of compassion.

Then in order to get the bear out of the trap, the hunter has to push him farther into the trap in order to release the tension on the spring. If the bear were semiconscious at this point, he would be even more convinced that the hunter was his enemy who was out to cause him more suffering and pain. But the bear would be wrong. He reaches this incorrect conclusion because he is a bear and not a human being.

Now, can we be certain that this is not an analogy between us and God? Sometimes God sees our condition and has do the same to us in order to free us, but we can’t comprehend why He does this anymore than the bear can comprehend the motivations of the hunter. Just as the bear could have trusted the hunter, so we can trust God.

The Fine Tuning of Evidence

Scripture describes God as a hidden God. This means you have to make an effort of faith to find him, and there are clues you can follow. If that weren’t so, if there was something more or less than clues, we would not be free to make a choice about Him. If we had absolute proof instead of clues, then we could no more deny God than we could deny the sun. If we had no evidence at all, we could never get to faith. God gives us just enough evidence so that those who want Him can have while those that don’t want Him are not forced to do so. Those who want to follow the clues will.

[Nope]

ST-

I'm going to post a few thoughts on the Problem of Evil/Pain/Suffering, and we'll see where this goes.

Thought #1:

Would you agree that there is a big difference in intelligence between us and a bear?

Imagine a bear in a trap and a hunter who, out of sympathy, wants to free him. He tries to win the bear’s confidence, but he can’t do it, so he has to shoot the bear full of tranquilizers. The bear, however, thinks this is an attack and that the hunter is trying to kill him. He doesn’t realize this is being done out of compassion.

Then in order to get the bear out of the trap, the hunter has to push him farther into the trap in order to release the tension on the spring. If the bear were semiconscious at this point, he would be even more convinced that the hunter was his enemy who was out to cause him more suffering and pain. But the bear would be wrong. He reaches this incorrect conclusion because he is a bear and not a human being.

Now, can we be certain that this is not an analogy between us and God? Sometimes God sees our condition and has do the same to us in order to free us, but we can’t comprehend why He does this anymore than the bear can comprehend the motivations of the hunter. Just as the bear could have trusted the hunter, so we can trust God.

The Fine Tuning of Evidence

Scripture describes God as a hidden God. This means you have to make an effort of faith to find him, and there are clues you can follow. If that weren’t so, if there was something more or less than clues, we would not be free to make a choice about Him. If we had absolute proof instead of clues, then we could no more deny God than we could deny the sun. If we had no evidence at all, we could never get to faith. God gives us just enough evidence so that those who want Him can have while those that don’t want Him are not forced to do so. Those who want to follow the clues will.

Who set the trap in the first place? If the hunter is going to represent god then the hunter must have been the one to set the trap. The hunter must also have perfect knowledge of everything that will happen in the future The bear has every reason, in that scenario, to hate the hunter.  If the hunter didn't want to capture bears then why did he set up a trap that he knew a bear would find? The hunter in this scenario is a psychopath

The Old Testament god interacted with his people before Jesus came. Jesus performed miracles. It is interesting that in the modern world, this hidden god acts exactly as he would if  he didn't exist

[robvalue]

Exactly. What has he done since then, And how do you know it was God and not just stuff happening?

Feck all is what he's done. The inmates are running the asylum now.

[Randy Carson]

ST-

I'm going to post a few thoughts on the Problem of Evil/Pain/Suffering, and we'll see where this goes.

Thought #1:

Would you agree that there is a big difference in intelligence between us and a bear?

Imagine a bear in a trap and a hunter who, out of sympathy, wants to free him. He tries to win the bear’s confidence, but he can’t do it, so he has to shoot the bear full of tranquilizers. The bear, however, thinks this is an attack and that the hunter is trying to kill him. He doesn’t realize this is being done out of compassion.

Then in order to get the bear out of the trap, the hunter has to push him farther into the trap in order to release the tension on the spring. If the bear were semiconscious at this point, he would be even more convinced that the hunter was his enemy who was out to cause him more suffering and pain. But the bear would be wrong. He reaches this incorrect conclusion because he is a bear and not a human being.

Now, can we be certain that this is not an analogy between us and God? Sometimes God sees our condition and has do the same to us in order to free us, but we can’t comprehend why He does this anymore than the bear can comprehend the motivations of the hunter. Just as the bear could have trusted the hunter, so we can trust God.

The Fine Tuning of Evidence

Scripture describes God as a hidden God. This means you have to make an effort of faith to find him, and there are clues you can follow. If that weren’t so, if there was something more or less than clues, we would not be free to make a choice about Him. If we had absolute proof instead of clues, then we could no more deny God than we could deny the sun. If we had no evidence at all, we could never get to faith. God gives us just enough evidence so that those who want Him can have while those that don’t want Him are not forced to do so. Those who want to follow the clues will.

Who set the trap in the first place?

Unknown and irrelevant to the analogy. The hunter was out looking for pheasants and stumbled upon the bear. If he was hunting bear, he would have killed the bear instead of freeing it.

If the hunter is going to represent god then the hunter must have been the one to set the trap.

The trap represents how we are snared by sin which comes from choosing our own will instead of obeying God. Stepping into the trap is, for man, purely voluntary.

The hunter must also have perfect knowledge of everything that will happen in the future. The bear has every reason, in that scenario, to hate the hunter.

Only if the bear mistakenly believes that it is caught in a trap set by the hunter. It was not. You hate God because you think Adam was set up and that you are an innocent victim. You are not innocent. You choose to disobey God daily.

If the hunter didn't want to capture bears then why did he set up a trap that he knew a bear would find? The hunter in this scenario is a psychopath

Even if the hunter knew that the possibility of the bear stepping into the trap existed, the hunter had to allow the bear the freedom to roam wherever it wanted. Otherwise, the bear was just in a cage.

In the analogy, the trap is something that the hunter could simply remove. In the non-analogous situation in which we find ourselves, removing the possibility of bad choices is not possible.

The Old Testament god interacted with his people before Jesus came. Jesus performed miracles. It is interesting that in the modern world, this hidden god acts exactly as he would if  he didn't exist

God provides juuuuussssst enough evidence for His presence that those who really seek him may find him while those that do not want to find Him will not be coerced.

[dyresand]

I'm 55, and I went to Georgia Tech, so I had a very technical education. But thank you...I think.  

Randy out of curiosity what degree do you have?