Abortion: 10 years as an atheist and I still don't get it

[Divinity]

Or maybe you just don't like the brutally obvious and unavoidable fact that abortion is killing your baby and so you're lashing out.

So you are just trying to shame people?  Good to know you're just a fucking phony who tried to make it seem like he had good intentions.

[The Grand Nudger]

That's always where this sort of shit falls off the rails.  If it's so very important for a person not to feel like a baybeekiller..then fine.  Don't kill baybees.  They'lll have to accept that the consequence of that need can amount to ruin, to profound and miserable disability..but hey, at least they don't feel like baybeekillers.

Fine.  They could keep that shame to themselves, though. It's their shame, after all.

[Nihilist Virus]

-and you got what you wanted.

Abortion can be justified as a moral good and a moral imperative by, for example..reference to overpopulation, pain, misery, etc

Abortion can be justified as a final moral good and moral elective by reference to exclusively suboptimal decision fields, the least bad among bad options.

Abortion can be justified as the consequence of morally negative avoidance, that the prohibition of abortion is vastly worse than it's acceptance.

Good and imperative, least bad and elective, and worst if we don't regardless.  Is there some moral base uncovered?  Any nominally rational person can accept all three of these.  Any nominally rational person could disagree with one or more of these.  No nominally rational person can disagree with all of these.  

-and it only takes one for abortion to be morally justified.

You're conflating "good" with "lesser evil". -10 is greater than -50, but that does not make -10 a positive number.

[The Grand Nudger]

You got what you wanted.  Is there something else you require?

[Nihilist Virus]

@Mister Agenda I was speaking of murder as ending life. If you'd prefer I user unlawful ending of human life then I could rephrase. As fetus' aren't universally agreed upon when they are a human life,

Pro-choice advocates say a fetus is not human life? I'm guessing you've talked to them more than I have.

---

More to the effect of, "what you just said was phenomenally ignorant, and let me share a little bit to show you why. "

You didn't make an argument to be valid or invalid, you just said something stupid.  That, in your estimation, the people here would consider abortion on account of warts on a kids face.  

Find me a pro-choice person here who would say that a mother would be immoral to abort on the sole grounds that the child has a facial wart.

So, I'll just state it again.  Shut the fuck up, lol.

For centuries Christians have used force to silence atheists because they knew which side has the good arguments. The only possible reason you'd have for wanting to silence me is if you have no good counterarguments. You'd provide them if you had them. Everything you've said up to this point has failed to address the main point: the termination of an ideal pregnancy in ideal financial conditions merely due to the whim of the mother.

She could be.

I shared with you how two people who are ideologically opposed to abortion..my wife and myself.....have to confront the reality of the decision.  Had some other couple been in a similar situation and chose not to have the child it would be the height of hilarity if neither she nor I could understand if they decided they didn't want to deal with all of that.  To insist that, somehow, their decision which differed from ours was immoral, or could not be morally justified.

That story..was a story about my wife and I, two well off people with plenty of cash when we first went into it and wanting a child.... getting lucky.....let that sink in.  Things could have been even worse.  We had to live through that, not just her and I..her and I and our kids and our friends and our family and everyone whose lives we impacted.   It got ugly, and our daughter will spend the rest of her life dealing with that complication.  Other people face worse consequences, more heartwrenching decisions, lesser circumstances....and, you know, some people don't even want kids, or aren't with anyone that they ought to have kids with.  If you ask either of us, we'd do it all over again, and do it all over the same way again...but that's just us... it doesn't carry some weight we can place on another persons back or insist that they carry it or be bad people.  Hell, we've heard every argument for why we were fucking up, why we shouldn't have a kid, or another kid, or another kid, or another kid.  It's not that those people have been wholly wrong.  More reasonable people in our situation might have called it quits after that first try and in many ways that probably could have been the best idea, practically and morally.  

You asked for something, you got what you asked for.

No, I haven't gotten what I asked for. You continue to miss the point. You keep bringing up oddities like warzone pregnancies and the worst delivery witnessed by a medical professional. That is tangential at best to the core premise of the pro-choice movement.

Your dissatisfaction is indicative of your own biases, and not in any way a product of not having been made aware of these things which you likely already knew..but decided to say phenomenally ignorant shit about.  You asked me what I would advise a person, I'll advise you.  Don't have an abortion, and while you're at it keep your opinions on the subject to yourself until such time as you can muster up credible ones.

Abortion problem solved.

So to summarize I'm talking about the whimsical termination of a pregnancy that is occurring in ideal circumstances. But I'm sure the next thing you move onto will be asking whether a woman who was abducted by aliens and forcibly impregnated with an alien-human hybrid should be allowed to abort.

---

Or maybe you just don't like the brutally obvious and unavoidable fact that abortion is killing your baby and so you're lashing out.

So you are just trying to shame people?  Good to know you're just a fucking phony who tried to make it seem like he had good intentions.

You've now crossed the line into blatant and willful dishonesty to the point that it is on the verge of violating the forum rules.

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Let me refresh you on what you are responding to.


So... is it not killing your baby then?

I'm not the person picketing and holding up a sign. I'm not judging and I wouldn't tell a woman who is having an abortion that what she's doing is immoral... unless she asked me my opinion. But none of that changes the fact that abortion is killing your baby. If you have the ability to wordsmith your way around that one, maybe you're able to solve the fundamental limitations of language and logic that have driven me to nihilism. Hell, maybe you also know of a workaround to thermodynamics which would allow for perpetual motion.

Or maybe you just don't like the brutally obvious and unavoidable fact that abortion is killing your baby and so you're lashing out.

I don't give half a shit about stigma. Meat and abortion are the same thing. It's the killing of a viable life form with a survival instinct and the capacity to suffer and feel pain so that others may benefit from it.


The part in bold directly contradicts your accusation and you deliberately redacted it and refused to acknowledge it.  That's dishonest and despicable.  You can redact portions of my post if they are unrelated to the point you want to make. But that's absolutely not what happened. You're representing your position with the grace and nobility of a Christian apologist.

And you proved my point by lashing out. Lol. Check and mate.

[Divinity]

You've now crossed the line into blatant and willful dishonesty to the point that it is on the verge of violating the forum rules.

The part in bold directly contradicts your accusation and you deliberately redacted it and refused to acknowledge it.  That's dishonest and despicable.  You can redact portions of my post if they are unrelated to the point you want to make. But that's absolutely not what happened. You're representing your position with the grace and nobility of a Christian apologist.

Just because you disagree with my definition of what shaming is -- and I'm not sure why you think you get to define that for abortion, especially given that you're not a woman.  Meaning that you'll never have to make that decision in your life -- does not mean that the rest of your post was relevant in the least.

It doesn't matter if you've never picketed.  You're on this message board right now right here giving your unsolicited opinion where all can see it.  To women who may have had an abortion, or at least considered it (and I know the latter exist on this board because I'm one of them).  Language like "Killing your baby" is 100% about shaming.  And language like "you don't like the brutally obvious and unavoidable fact" is 100% about shaming.  It's also about judgment.  

So if anyone is representing their position with the grace and nobility of a Christian apologist, it's you.  Congratulations, you've nailed it!  All this "It's not judgement!  i'm just saying if you abort a baby you are LITERALLY KILLING YOUR BABY!"  Which is equivalent to "I don't hate gay people! I just want to tell them their lifestyle is wrong, and that they'll burn in hell for eternity for loving someone of the same sex."

[The Grand Nudger]

No, I haven't gotten what I asked for.  You continue to miss the point.  You keep bringing up oddities like warzone pregnancies and the worst delivery witnessed by a medical professional.  That is tangential at best to the core premise of the pro-choice movement.

You asked for a way that abortion could be morally justified.  I provided you with three potential routes for that justification.  You quoted them, so..yeah...you did.  

So to summarize I'm talking about the whimsical termination of a pregnancy that is occurring in ideal circumstances. But I'm sure the next thing you move onto will be asking whether a woman who was abducted by aliens and forcibly impregnated with an alien-human hybrid should be allowed to abort.

...or you could just keep saying phenomenally ignorant shit, I suppose.

[Nihilist Virus]

You asked for a way that abortion could be morally justified.

Which part of the OP did you twist to come up with that interpretation? I never said that.

Recall I said this to you earlier:

You mentioned a warzone abortion earlier so how bizarre of situations are you considering? I mean... we could come up with a bizarre scenario where rape is the moral thing to do. That doesn't mean we should just legalize rape.


Even if I grant everything you've said to this point, you have not even attempted to address whether a woman has the moral right to choose in any scenario. So you absolutely haven't answered my question. You've only lobbed extreme scenarios at me and then acted like action taken in those situations should serve as the norm.

I provided you with three potential routes for that justification.  You quoted them, so..yeah...you did.  

It appears that you are too stupid to understand the question being asked, so we can just cut it off here.

...or you could just keep saying phenomenally ignorant shit, I suppose.

Ah, so you've given up on telling me to shut the fuck up, lol.

[The Grand Nudger]

I have a problem with how people draft their moral views. In particular, moral rationalization.

So please explain to me why abortion is morally acceptable or what I might be missing.

-edited for brevity.

-and you got what you wanted.

Abortion can be justified as a moral good and a moral imperative by, for example..reference to overpopulation, pain, misery, etc

Abortion can be justified as a final moral good and moral elective by reference to exclusively suboptimal decision fields, the least bad among bad options.

Abortion can be justified as the consequence of morally negative avoidance, that the prohibition of abortion is vastly worse than it's acceptance.

Good and imperative, least bad and elective, and worst if we don't regardless.  Is there some moral base uncovered?  Any nominally rational person can accept all three of these.  Any nominally rational person could disagree with one or more of these.  No nominally rational person can disagree with all of these.  

-and it only takes one for abortion to be morally justified.

You're conflating "good" with "lesser evil".  -10 is greater than -50, but that does not make -10 a positive number.

You got what you asked for, you quoted it. Is there anything else you require?

[Nihilist Virus]

I have a problem with how people draft their moral views. In particular, moral rationalization.

So please explain to me why abortion is morally acceptable or what I might be missing.

-edited for brevity.

You're conflating "good" with "lesser evil".  -10 is greater than -50, but that does not make -10 a positive number.

You got what you asked for, you quoted it.  Is there anything else you require?

This thread is not an attempt to persuade anyone of anything. I'm asking you all to persuade me of something. So I see no need in continuing to hammer the issue with you when you're clearly unable to grasp the question being asked. I will look elsewhere. Thanks, and good luck to your family.