Morality

[TeslaTrooper]

Its basically a concept I have been grappling with for a while. For those of us who aren't religious or live in secular societies, it would appear that their is a significant correlation with the decline in morality, and the decline in religion. In the past In my country, Christianity provided a "moral guideline" if you will for how we should live our lives

For the most part this "past morality" you speak of was an illusion. Throughout history, violence has always gone hand in hand with religion, and due to the church's vice-grip control over the uneducated masses, morally reprehensible acts were simply kept in secret far better than they are today. People are people, and the same desires to be free and live the life you choose existed every bit as much 500 years ago as they do today.

... if there is no God and if religion is a farce, then who is to say that the way they are living/behaving is wrong?

Why do you need someone to tell you what is wrong? You do realize that it's just going to be their own subjective opinion anyway right?

For me this is how I define "wrong": Does my action hurt someone else? (not offend - HURT) In addition, is my action so self-serving that in the long run, someone is going to have to pay dearly for it. (ie. dumping toxic waste into an aquifer that is meant to sustain life for hundreds of years)


Also, the christians version of morality and the muslims version of morality differ greatly. Which god should we rely on for this morality you THINK we are lacking??

Well thats the problem. Morality differs between religions and people within the same religions. Also differes between athiests. I guess morality could be looked at in terms of doing wrong or harm to others. But it would still conflict. I.e it is moral to be truthful. I tell my wife she is fat. Im behaving in a good way by not telling lies, but I still cause her upset, by telling her shes fat.

I do feel the beauty of free choice, is that we have the power within ourselves to behave appropriately, and in a kind way without restrictions imposed on us.

The problem i see in the u.k is that people arent making the right choices, and the concept of right or wrong has been either blurred or lost for many people.

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im early 20s. This the argument my gf puts across to me also. So I cannot verify what it was like exactly in those times, but only from what people say, so I guess in that sense I cannot really make a true comparison. But yes it would be the media, but also the older generations that have highlighted the stark differences in current society and past society.

Well when I think of religious societies that are still very violent I immediately think of the islamic countries in the east. But again like I said i feel this may also have a cultural/ east vs west dimension to it as I find most christian communities/ countries to be very peaceful.

Do you indeed? Why don't you tell it to Northern Ireland, right on your own doorstep? Here are some other Christian countries:

Russia
Colombia
Uganda
Rwanda
Zimbabwe
Nigeria
Mexico
Brazil
Serbia

Are you sure about that? Shall I continue?

Older generations, like the media that caters to them, have an idea of the past that is provably untrue. When your grandparents were children, their parents probably thought society had gone to the dogs too. It's like a study that showed that every generation thought that the English language was worse than it was when they were a child. It's just a kind of nostalgia that leads people to these conclusions, and they're all a load of shit.

Ok they may be christian countries as such, but if we take examples of modern day Christians or Jews or whoever, in the u.k for example. To me they always come across as very peaceful and accepting people. Perhaps because what many christians are following these days is a different kind of Christianity it was 100 years ago. I don't hear the vicar in my local parish talking about smiting heathens and non beleivers. I believe largely Christianity or at least some sects/versions of it, have evolved somewhat from its early beginnings.

But again for me its all about how religion has been interpreted. You can choose passages that talk about love and forgiveness, but also passages about stoning people to death. I read a few passage out of the bible once. It was all about how the non believing Egyptians were going to be wiped out. It occurred to me, that the bible was very contextual to the middle east palestine, egypt syria region. Which would suggest there was a geographical restraint to it (in those times the world was not as connected as it is now). It made me wonder, why there was not going to be a vengeful wrath upon the nordic pagans, or the Oriental cultures. In fact they arent mentioned at all. If god was all seeing and all knowing, why only reek havoc upon egypt. Why not cast his all powerful vengence upon the other heathens too.

Potentially, but I still feel that there were societal norms that allowed for a more harmonious atmosphere during that particular period. Again I dont just think it is a religious issue, I think there are many other issues involved. But I still feel that those who are preaching a particular form of christianity i.e about love and compassion are incredibly peaceful people.

But then again we see the catholic priests messing around with kids...........

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Look at the statistics of Atheist in jail compared to religious people? There is a number of genocides of murder, in the name of the 'Lord'. The last thing I'll take moral values from is the bible. I think morals come from common sense, more than anything. Most of which, the way you are raised. The bible shouldn't have to teach you how to act right in contemporary society, it's a parents job, and your job.

Sources: Ignorant pricks at school :p

The problem is, so many parents are ignorant. Perhaps the state should try disciplining us more as kids, less about the individual and more about the society? My mum told me that when she was little, if she misbehaved in public other older people would intervene and tell her off, perhaps even give her a clip round the ear. If you did that now it would be assault. As we saw from the riots, and from my experience we arent taught respect, and whats right and wrong as much anymore.

I believe the state and society in general have more of a role to play, as the parents can only do so much. For example I was taught right from wrong, what to do and what not to do. By my parents and loosely in school too. I however have still done things I shouldnt have done as a teenager mostly rebellious childish stuff. For example once when drunk I threw my takeaway at a police car windscreen as he was driving then ran away. At the time it was hilarious, but what would have happened if they crashed or something?

Again I dont think fear is the best motivator, i.e fear of police fear of parents etc. But public condemnation and its effects are a strong motivator. A muslim friend of mine, told me in his village, if someone steals, then the whole village would scourn them, and there would be shame on him and his family. Ive been told it was a little bit like that here in the 50s and early 60s.

I dont feel we have a strong enough community to be like that anymore. I dont even know half of the neighbours on my street.

Again all seperate issues not directly related to religion, but worth stating all the same.

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You say lad so I may guess you may be from the U.K also. I can agree to an extent that some secular societies are less barbaric than religious ones.

Hold on a minute, not trying to derail the thread here, but are we talking about the same United Kingdom here? Ace didn't insinuate the UK was ever a secular state, because its clearly not, you're making the loose comparison when he was actually talking about Sweden.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secular_state

But the U.k is a secular state? the church and state are seperate. Im not quite sure I follow you...