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There are no answers in Genesis
#40
RE: There are no answers in Genesis
(November 28, 2022 at 8:20 am)emjay Wrote: Where I said elsewhere that I took the Bible literally - both when I was a Christian, 20, 30 years ago, and now as a critic - I meant with the exception of where it is explicit or obvious that it was not intended to be taken literally, such as Psalms or parables for instance. But where Genesis is concerned, I'm not convinced; to me, if something includes lots of specifics... names, places, details... that usually implies that it is intended to be taken as a literal, historic account of something. Genesis is full of such details. Why for instance would there be the need to describe the names and locations of specific rivers in the Garden of Eden? ...when such details are completely superfluous to any obvious allegorical reading?

It seems pretty clear that the Bible is edited together from lots of different writers with lots of different intentions. Genesis in particular is a collage of different styles and levels. It's entirely possible that some part was believed by the author to be true history, and other parts are legend, myth, or extended metaphor. 

And you know, I'm sure, that it's a very old tradition to say that every verse should be interpreted at four levels simultaneously. There are easy meanings and difficult meanings, and secret, kabbalistic meanings. 

When Augustine talked about the "literal" meaning, he means the meaning that the original author intended. So if the verse was originally meant as a metaphor, then, confusingly, the literal meaning is metaphorical. But for people who believe that the text is inspired, the full meaning may not be known to the original author. It unfolds and reveals itself through time.

As for detail, I don't see why a symbolic reading would necessarily need to have less. The more propaganda/history parts of the OT about the kings of Israel, for example, might give place names for verisimilitude, but if they're talking about Eden, which is full of symbolism, more detail might just mean more symbols. 

Think about a famous non-biblical text that's been interpreted allegorically, for example. The chapter in the Odyssey where Odysseus finally arrives in Ithaca describes in great detail a cave where he goes to hide his stuff and disguise himself before going to his house. Whether Homer (or whoever made it up) intended it or not, every little detail of the description has been given Neoplatonic readings by later writers, most famously Porphyry. In this case, greater detail in the literal description corresponds to greater detail in the metaphysical meaning. Spenser imitated it, in part, for his description of the Garden of Adonis, where souls go in transit between the ideal and material worlds. He describes in exhaustive detail what he imagines such a place to be like. 

Or the famous "pageant" section at the end of the Purgatorio, is another example. Dante describes dozens of characters and a strange beast and lots of other stuff, in great detail. It has kept readers busy interpreting its meaning(s) for 700 years. 

Whether any part of Genesis was intended to operate this way originally or not isn't really important, except as a historical detail. The fact is it's been read that way, and so that's what it has come to mean.
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Messages In This Thread
There are no answers in Genesis - by LinuxGal - November 20, 2022 at 12:56 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Ahriman - November 20, 2022 at 12:59 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Jehanne - November 20, 2022 at 1:57 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Anomalocaris - November 20, 2022 at 3:48 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Mister Agenda - November 21, 2022 at 1:56 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Anomalocaris - November 20, 2022 at 1:06 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by arewethereyet - November 20, 2022 at 1:09 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - November 20, 2022 at 3:27 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Gwaithmir - November 21, 2022 at 8:46 am
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Ahriman - November 21, 2022 at 9:06 am
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Gwaithmir - November 23, 2022 at 8:44 am
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Ferrocyanide - March 19, 2023 at 11:57 am
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Belacqua - November 21, 2022 at 9:24 am
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Angrboda - November 21, 2022 at 9:29 am
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - November 21, 2022 at 11:50 am
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Anomalocaris - November 21, 2022 at 11:32 am
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Ranjr - November 21, 2022 at 1:23 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Neo-Scholastic - November 21, 2022 at 2:10 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Jehanne - November 21, 2022 at 2:25 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Neo-Scholastic - November 21, 2022 at 4:56 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Jehanne - November 21, 2022 at 5:20 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Belacqua - November 21, 2022 at 7:13 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - November 21, 2022 at 7:24 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Neo-Scholastic - November 21, 2022 at 8:29 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - November 21, 2022 at 9:30 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Fake Messiah - November 22, 2022 at 1:47 am
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by LinuxGal - November 22, 2022 at 3:01 am
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - November 21, 2022 at 3:15 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Belacqua - November 21, 2022 at 8:25 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Jehanne - November 21, 2022 at 8:57 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by LinuxGal - November 21, 2022 at 9:44 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by emjay - November 28, 2022 at 8:20 am
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Belacqua - November 28, 2022 at 10:34 am
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by emjay - November 28, 2022 at 4:35 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Belacqua - November 28, 2022 at 6:41 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Jehanne - November 28, 2022 at 7:20 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Neo-Scholastic - November 29, 2022 at 12:21 am
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Fake Messiah - November 29, 2022 at 1:06 am
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Angrboda - November 29, 2022 at 9:39 am
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Jehanne - November 29, 2022 at 10:23 am
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Belacqua - November 29, 2022 at 12:48 am
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Anomalocaris - November 28, 2022 at 7:40 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by emjay - November 28, 2022 at 7:44 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by arewethereyet - November 21, 2022 at 9:01 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Neo-Scholastic - November 21, 2022 at 10:10 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by The Architect Of Fate - November 21, 2022 at 11:00 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by The Grand Nudger - November 22, 2022 at 4:16 am
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - November 22, 2022 at 5:52 am
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by The Grand Nudger - November 27, 2022 at 8:02 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by The Grand Nudger - November 28, 2022 at 11:00 am
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Jehanne - November 28, 2022 at 11:44 am
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by HappySkeptic - November 28, 2022 at 1:31 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Anomalocaris - November 28, 2022 at 3:58 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Anomalocaris - November 28, 2022 at 1:25 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Jehanne - November 28, 2022 at 1:43 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Jehanne - November 28, 2022 at 4:04 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Anomalocaris - November 28, 2022 at 4:18 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Anomalocaris - November 28, 2022 at 6:29 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by emjay - November 28, 2022 at 7:59 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Belacqua - November 28, 2022 at 9:30 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by emjay - November 29, 2022 at 8:01 am
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Belacqua - November 29, 2022 at 8:33 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by arewethereyet - November 29, 2022 at 8:40 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Belacqua - November 29, 2022 at 9:02 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Jehanne - November 29, 2022 at 11:18 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - November 30, 2022 at 3:17 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Jehanne - November 30, 2022 at 3:21 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Angrboda - November 28, 2022 at 8:40 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Anomalocaris - November 29, 2022 at 12:55 am
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by emjay - November 29, 2022 at 10:48 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Belacqua - November 30, 2022 at 12:03 am
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by emjay - November 30, 2022 at 5:46 am
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by arewethereyet - November 30, 2022 at 6:29 am
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Anomalocaris - November 30, 2022 at 2:59 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Mister Agenda - November 30, 2022 at 11:52 am
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Belacqua - November 30, 2022 at 4:19 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by arewethereyet - November 30, 2022 at 4:20 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Mister Agenda - December 2, 2022 at 9:00 am
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by emjay - December 2, 2022 at 1:24 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Ranjr - November 30, 2022 at 3:25 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Angrboda - November 30, 2022 at 5:23 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Anomalocaris - November 30, 2022 at 9:00 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Ranjr - November 30, 2022 at 6:13 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Neo-Scholastic - November 30, 2022 at 9:09 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by arewethereyet - November 30, 2022 at 9:15 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Anomalocaris - November 30, 2022 at 9:18 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Angrboda - December 1, 2022 at 1:14 am
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by HappySkeptic - November 30, 2022 at 9:16 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Neo-Scholastic - November 30, 2022 at 9:24 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Neo-Scholastic - November 30, 2022 at 10:28 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Jehanne - November 30, 2022 at 11:59 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Belacqua - December 1, 2022 at 12:50 am
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Anomalocaris - December 1, 2022 at 12:54 am
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Deesse23 - December 1, 2022 at 3:19 am
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Jehanne - December 1, 2022 at 10:28 am
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Deesse23 - December 1, 2022 at 11:38 am
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Jehanne - December 1, 2022 at 11:58 am
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Mister Agenda - December 1, 2022 at 7:23 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Belacqua - December 2, 2022 at 8:25 am
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by The Architect Of Fate - November 30, 2022 at 11:05 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Anomalocaris - December 1, 2022 at 12:54 am
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Angrboda - December 1, 2022 at 9:16 am
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Ranjr - December 1, 2022 at 10:11 am
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Angrboda - December 1, 2022 at 10:35 am
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Ranjr - December 1, 2022 at 10:56 am
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Angrboda - December 1, 2022 at 11:51 am
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Ranjr - December 1, 2022 at 1:31 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Jehanne - December 1, 2022 at 11:01 am
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by arewethereyet - December 1, 2022 at 11:49 am
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Fake Messiah - December 1, 2022 at 11:56 am
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by arewethereyet - December 1, 2022 at 12:02 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - December 1, 2022 at 12:49 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Angrboda - December 1, 2022 at 1:42 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by arewethereyet - December 1, 2022 at 2:55 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Angrboda - December 1, 2022 at 11:54 am
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by brewer - December 1, 2022 at 11:59 am
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Jehanne - December 1, 2022 at 12:19 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by arewethereyet - December 1, 2022 at 12:25 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Angrboda - December 1, 2022 at 12:40 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by brewer - December 1, 2022 at 7:26 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Ranjr - December 1, 2022 at 1:17 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by HappySkeptic - December 1, 2022 at 1:21 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by arewethereyet - December 1, 2022 at 1:39 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Neo-Scholastic - December 1, 2022 at 2:23 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by arewethereyet - December 1, 2022 at 2:33 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Angrboda - December 1, 2022 at 3:53 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by arewethereyet - December 1, 2022 at 5:27 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Ranjr - December 1, 2022 at 2:49 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Anomalocaris - December 2, 2022 at 11:02 am
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Jehanne - December 2, 2022 at 11:26 am
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Anomalocaris - December 2, 2022 at 11:52 am
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Jehanne - December 2, 2022 at 2:10 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Anomalocaris - December 2, 2022 at 2:38 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by The Grand Nudger - December 2, 2022 at 11:36 am
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Belacqua - December 2, 2022 at 2:51 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Anomalocaris - December 2, 2022 at 2:54 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Jehanne - December 2, 2022 at 3:01 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Belacqua - December 2, 2022 at 10:11 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Anomalocaris - December 2, 2022 at 10:57 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by LinuxGal - December 5, 2022 at 9:06 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Belacqua - December 5, 2022 at 10:32 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Mister Agenda - December 6, 2022 at 10:31 am
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Belacqua - December 5, 2022 at 12:41 am
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Belacqua - December 5, 2022 at 6:59 am
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Jehanne - December 5, 2022 at 9:46 am
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Ahriman - December 5, 2022 at 9:51 am
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Jehanne - December 5, 2022 at 10:07 am
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Ahriman - December 5, 2022 at 10:16 am
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Jehanne - December 5, 2022 at 10:19 am
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Ahriman - December 5, 2022 at 10:24 am
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Jehanne - December 5, 2022 at 10:33 am
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Ahriman - December 5, 2022 at 10:35 am
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Jehanne - December 5, 2022 at 11:04 am
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by brewer - December 5, 2022 at 11:14 am
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Ahriman - December 5, 2022 at 11:28 am
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Fake Messiah - December 5, 2022 at 1:03 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Anomalocaris - December 5, 2022 at 1:22 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by h4ym4n - December 5, 2022 at 2:51 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Anomalocaris - December 5, 2022 at 3:02 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by LinuxGal - December 5, 2022 at 10:46 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by brewer - December 5, 2022 at 4:14 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Anomalocaris - December 5, 2022 at 1:54 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Lek - December 7, 2022 at 9:24 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by arewethereyet - December 7, 2022 at 10:53 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by The Grand Nudger - December 8, 2022 at 1:29 am
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Fake Messiah - December 8, 2022 at 2:21 am
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - December 8, 2022 at 5:53 am
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by arewethereyet - December 8, 2022 at 7:20 am
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Jehanne - December 8, 2022 at 7:03 am
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Ranjr - December 8, 2022 at 10:36 am
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Lek - December 8, 2022 at 4:37 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - December 8, 2022 at 5:06 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Lek - December 8, 2022 at 5:35 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - December 8, 2022 at 6:01 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Lek - December 8, 2022 at 7:08 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - December 8, 2022 at 7:34 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Lek - December 8, 2022 at 7:55 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - December 9, 2022 at 12:16 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Lek - December 8, 2022 at 5:39 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Angrboda - December 8, 2022 at 5:53 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Angrboda - December 8, 2022 at 7:31 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Jehanne - December 8, 2022 at 10:07 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - December 9, 2022 at 12:19 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by The Grand Nudger - December 9, 2022 at 3:10 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Lek - December 9, 2022 at 4:05 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Angrboda - December 9, 2022 at 4:07 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by The Grand Nudger - December 9, 2022 at 4:07 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Lek - December 9, 2022 at 4:21 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Jehanne - December 9, 2022 at 8:20 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Fake Messiah - December 9, 2022 at 10:10 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by LinuxGal - December 9, 2022 at 10:43 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Jehanne - December 9, 2022 at 10:51 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by LinuxGal - December 9, 2022 at 11:39 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Jehanne - December 10, 2022 at 12:05 am
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Lek - December 10, 2022 at 1:57 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Angrboda - December 9, 2022 at 4:22 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by The Grand Nudger - December 9, 2022 at 4:22 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Lek - December 9, 2022 at 5:13 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Lek - December 9, 2022 at 5:37 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Jehanne - December 10, 2022 at 2:48 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Lek - December 10, 2022 at 2:53 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Jehanne - December 10, 2022 at 4:34 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Lek - December 10, 2022 at 4:45 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Jehanne - December 10, 2022 at 5:05 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by LinuxGal - December 29, 2022 at 5:44 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by arewethereyet - December 10, 2022 at 5:11 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Lek - December 10, 2022 at 7:43 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Jehanne - December 10, 2022 at 9:22 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Jehanne - December 10, 2022 at 10:01 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Neo-Scholastic - March 23, 2023 at 10:37 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Belacqua - March 24, 2023 at 5:15 am
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by arewethereyet - March 24, 2023 at 5:51 am
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Ferrocyanide - March 24, 2023 at 7:34 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by Lek - December 11, 2022 at 4:39 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by The Architect Of Fate - December 11, 2022 at 11:00 pm
RE: There are no answers in Genesis - by LinuxGal - December 13, 2022 at 9:24 pm

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