RE: Universe from Nothing?
November 7, 2013 at 12:54 am
(This post was last modified: November 7, 2013 at 1:00 am by Jesus is Lord.)
(November 6, 2013 at 9:55 pm)Optimistic Mysanthrope Wrote: @Jesus is Lord
Just a piece of friendly advice, since your new to the forum it might be a good idea to have a quick search for the various arguments you might raise. The chances are quite high that they've been used before and countered. It might help you reformulate and strengthen your own arguments.
Thanks - I appreciate the advice.
(November 7, 2013 at 12:33 am)Bipolar Bob Wrote:(November 6, 2013 at 9:37 pm)Jesus is Lord Wrote: The Universe that we can measure and observe is one ruled by laws and order. The very smallest elements which we can study have ordered forms, and follow laws which allow us to predict many, though not all behaviors.
Order itself, law itself cannot exist on its own; it requires something of a higher order to give it. A legal universe requires God for its origin.
The universe is much too noisy to be called a "legal" universe. You theist seem to forget that this universes is filled with uncertainties and a vast amount of events are unpredictable. The universe is just as much as chaotic as it is ordered.
Could you explain more what you mean? What elements of the universe would seem to be incapable of being incorporated into a theoretical framework of science?
(November 7, 2013 at 12:39 am)Esquilax Wrote:(November 6, 2013 at 11:31 pm)Lion IRC Wrote: I think the most compelling aspect of the fine-tuning argument is not so much that we see stuff which theists maintain is deliberate (teleology)
...but that we can tell the difference between the deliberate and the accidental.
Ah, I'm going to have fun with this.
Do you know how we ascertain the difference between designed and undesigned things, Lion? It's comparison, not complexity, not intuition, comparison. We contrast the designed against the undesigned.
So if we draw out your fine tuning argument to its logical conclusion, we can see how it falls apart; in accordance with this argument, then everything is designed. There's no point of contrast to be had; when you say you can tell the difference between deliberate things and accidental things, what you're saying, if you believe in fine tuning, is that you're picking out some designed things from a world that is made of nothing else, and calling them accidental, while assigning a label of designed things to everything else, based on whether or not humans have tampered with them. It's entirely arbitrary.
Not sure this is a cohesive argument. Would you agree that designed things display ordered, informational content that often contrasts to the immediate environment?
