RE: Universe from Nothing?
November 7, 2013 at 1:22 am
(This post was last modified: November 7, 2013 at 1:34 am by Jesus is Lord.)
(November 6, 2013 at 9:42 pm)Darkstar Wrote:(November 6, 2013 at 9:37 pm)Jesus is Lord Wrote: The Universe that we can measure and observe is one ruled by laws and order. The very smallest elements which we can study have ordered forms, and follow laws which allow us to predict many, though not all behaviors.Okay.
(November 6, 2013 at 9:37 pm)Jesus is Lord Wrote: Order itself, law itself cannot exist on its own; it requires something of a higher order to give it.How do you know this?
-Because all systems known to science progress from ordered to disordered states. What ever it is that makes, say, quantum physics possible cannot generate the framework for quantum physics from an equivalently ordered state.
(November 6, 2013 at 9:37 pm)Jesus is Lord Wrote: A legal universe requires God for its origin.IF premise one were true, why would this follow?
IF the conclusion were true, which god would it be, and how would we know?
Which God, and how would we know? God would have to take care of that. Jesus said that those who seek find. God sees those who seek Him, and He rewards them.
(November 7, 2013 at 1:20 am)Esquilax Wrote:(November 7, 2013 at 12:54 am)Jesus is Lord Wrote: Not sure this is a cohesive argument. Would you agree that designed things display ordered, informational content that often contrasts to the immediate environment?
It depends on what you mean by information, really: in certain usages of the term, everything has ordered informational content, with regards to its position and current state. That's the thing: when creationists talk about "information," it's always this vague term, where it's used more to evoke the idea that the thing containing it is designed, without ever giving it a definition. So, what do you mean?
-Information is a self-distinguishing kind of data that usually cannot be generated by its immediate context, and which refers to or interacts with elements which lay beyond the immediate context. Information may be self-referential, have predictive value, or clearly point to an abstraction layer.
Quote:Besides, my point was that, in a world where god designed everything and fine tuned the world, there can be no contrast between designed/undesigned things, because in that world, everything was designed. The contrast you're seeking is god designed versus human designed, and what would the point of comparison be there? Well, it'd have to be whether the thing looks obviously designed, like the sandcastle above, or things that don't, but must be because of fine tuning. The entire argument is an exercise in question begging.
Quote:How would a materialist begin, if not with nothing?
What makes you think we're materialists?
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An athiest cannot believe in anything beyond the observable physical universe. That is the essence of materialism.
I'm going to bed now. I won't be able to answer posts for a while. Thanks to everyone who has posted.