Primordial Sex--Eden as Allegory

[LarissaAnn]

this is punishment for what the man did. are you really comparing today's culture to the law in the old testiment without looking at the culture? all women did back then and all they ever wanted to do was marry, take care of their husbands and raise a family. if she is defiled, then no man will want to marry her so, in order to make sure the woman is not deprived of her goal in life for something that wasn't her fault, they force the man to have her. whether you think that's right or not, that's how it was. don't try to compare ancient law to modern culture.

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how about the fact that just b/c it's illegal doesn't mean it's feared. homophobic was a word invented by gays in order to convince others they are hated. the fact is it is not feared just illegal the same way adultery, fornication, and such are ilegal. does that make the bible adulterphobic? fornicationphobic?

Quite the contrary deary-o, I avidly study history and I believe that fascinating as it is, it should stay where it's at, in the past because such ways, customs, and laws are outdated making a 2000 year old book, i.e. the bible, inept and irrelevant as a guide for our society today.

There are SOME moral lessons one can take from the bible, but none that haven't already been instilled into today's times throughout history, biblical morals are old news. There is nothing NEW the bible can give us that mankind doesn't already know and practice and for the few morals, there are TONS that the bible does to poison our society because it's for a culture and people who lived 2000 years ago.

Homosexuality is only illegal in intolerant countries which is part of the poison I was just mentioning above. Slowly but surely gay rights are being made into laws which as you can see in intolerant jackasses everywhere just pisses Christians off (and isn't anger a sin??). Your theory that "Homophobia" was created by homosexuals is hilarious...in that case "religious persecution" is just a coup invented by Christians to convince us that they are being hated so society really doesn't need to take it seriously.

And yes, the bible is fornicaphobic because of it's unhealthy views on sex, I knew a guy when I was a teenager whose family was SO batshit crazy religious that the kid was ashamed of his own body when he felt sexual urges. The kid was royally screwed up because religion was so forced down his throat.

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this is punishment for what the man did. are you really comparing today's culture to the law in the old testiment without looking at the culture? all women did back then and all they ever wanted to do was marry, take care of their husbands and raise a family. if she is defiled, then no man will want to marry her so, in order to make sure the woman is not deprived of her goal in life for something that wasn't her fault, they force the man to have her. whether you think that's right or not, that's how it was. don't try to compare ancient law to modern culture.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

how about the fact that just b/c it's illegal doesn't mean it's feared. homophobic was a word invented by gays in order to convince others they are hated. the fact is it is not feared just illegal the same way adultery, fornication, and such are ilegal. does that make the bible adulterphobic? fornicationphobic?

Quite the contrary deary-o, I avidly study history and I believe that fascinating as it is, it should stay where it's at, in the past, because such ways, customs and laws are outdated; making a 2000+ year old book, i.e. the bible, inept and irrelevant as a guide for our society today.

There are SOME moral lessons one can take from the bible, but none that haven't already been instilled into today's times, biblical morals are all old news. There is nothing NEW the bible can give us that mankind doesn't already know and practice yet TONS that it does to poison our society because it was written for a culture and people who lived 2000 years ago.

Homosexuality is only illegal in intolerant countries which is part of the poison I was mentioning (intolerance and hate). Slowly but surely gay rights are being made into laws which as you can see in fanatical jackasses just pisses fundie Christians right off...remind me again, isn't anger a sin??

Your theaory that "homophobia" was created by homosexuals just means that "religious persecution" is just a coup invented by Christians to convince us that they're being hated, so to me that means we don't need to take religious persecution as a serious issue.

And yes, the bible is fornicaphobic because of its unhealthy views on sex. I knew a guy when I was in my twenties whose family was SO batshit crazy religious that the kind was ashamed of his own body when he felt sexual urges. He was ROYALLY screwed up because religion was so forced down his throat.

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[quote=LarissaAnn] Deuteronomy 22:28-29
If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry her because he has violated her.

How is that not sexist? Is that the justice you would want for your daughter, sister, etc. if that were to happen to them? Does the fact that we put rapists in jail make man's law more moral and just than biblical law?

this is punishment for what the man did. are you really comparing today's culture to the law in the old testiment without looking at the culture? all women did back then and all they ever wanted to do was marry, take care of their husbands and raise a family. if she is defiled, then no man will want to marry her so, in order to make sure the woman is not deprived of her goal in life for something that wasn't her fault, they force the man to have her. whether you think that's right or not, that's how it was. don't try to compare ancient law to modern culture.

Leviticus 20:13
If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done the detestable. They must be put to death.
How is that not homophobic?

how about the fact that just b/c it's illegal doesn't mean it's feared. homophobic was a word invented by gays in order to convince others they are hated. the fact is it is not feared just illegal the same way adultery, fornication, and such are ilegal. does that make the bible adulterphobic? fornicationphobic?

Let's not forget that incest is also OK, so long as daddy is pissed and his daughter makes the first move.

completely not true. incest is clearly defigned as wrong in the bible no matter who makes the first move.

Quite the contrary deary-o, I avidly study history and I believe that fascinating as it is, it should stay where it's at, in the past because such ways, customs, and laws are outdated making a 2000 year old book, i.e. the bible, inept and irrelevant as a guide for our society today.

There are SOME moral lessons one can take from the bible, but none that haven't already been instilled into today's times throughout history, biblical morals are old news. There is nothing NEW the bible can give us that mankind doesn't already know and practice and for the few morals, there are TONS that the bible does to poison our society because it's for a culture and people who lived 2000 years ago.

Homosexuality is only illegal in intolerant countries which is part of the poison I was just mentioning above. Slowly but surely gay rights are being made into laws which as you can see in intolerant jackasses everywhere just pisses Christians off (and isn't anger a sin??). Your theory that "Homophobia" was created by homosexuals is hilarious...in that case "religious persecution" is just a coup invented by Christians to convince us that they are being hated so society really doesn't need to take it seriously.

And yes, the bible is fornicaphobic because of it's unhealthy views on sex, I knew a guy when I was a teenager whose family was SO batshit crazy religious that the kid was ashamed of his own body when he felt sexual urges. The kid was royally screwed up because religion was so forced down his throat.

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Dammit, my posts don't seem to be going through.
@Chipan

Quite the contrary deary-o, I avidly study history and I believe that fascinating as it is, it should stay where it's at, in the past because such ways, customs, and laws are outdated making a 2000 year old book, i.e. the bible, inept and irrelevant as a guide for our society today.

There are SOME moral lessons one can take from the bible, but none that haven't already been instilled into today's times throughout history, biblical morals are old news. There is nothing NEW the bible can give us that mankind doesn't already know and practice and for the few morals, there are TONS that the bible does to poison our society because it's for a culture and people who lived 2000 years ago.

Homosexuality is only illegal in intolerant countries which is part of the poison I was just mentioning above. Slowly but surely gay rights are being made into laws which as you can see in intolerant jackasses everywhere just pisses Christians off (and isn't anger a sin??). Your theory that "Homophobia" was created by homosexuals is hilarious...in that case "religious persecution" is just a coup invented by Christians to convince us that they are being hated so society really doesn't need to take it seriously.

And yes, the bible is fornicaphobic because of it's unhealthy views on sex, I knew a guy when I was a teenager whose family was SO batshit crazy religious that the kid was ashamed of his own body when he felt sexual urges. The kid was royally screwed up because religion was so forced down his throat.

[Jackalope]

don't try to compare ancient law to modern culture.

Here's where you fail, and don't even realize it.

We aren't comparing ancient law to modern culture.

We're comparing ancient (biblical) morality to modern (human) morality. Ancient morality is inferior.

If biblical morality was given to man by a perfect deity, this would not be so.

[LarissaAnn]

Exactly.
The few good morals you can find in the bible, love your neighbor as yourself, do not murder (that one in particular atheists obey more than religious followers as a whole) etc. are all old news to us in todays society. There is nothing new that the bible can teach us that mankind doesn't already know and no more good than man doesn't already practice.

On the opposite end there are TONS of teachings in the bible that poison our society because it is written for a primitive culture and people who lived 2000 years ago. It's all irrelevant.

Homosexuality is only illegal in intolerant countries. Slowly but surely gay rights are being made into laws which pisses fundie Christians right off...remind me again, aren't anger and judging both sins??

Your theory, Chipan, that homophobia is a term invented by homosexuals means that in return religious persecution can be seen as just a farce invented by Christians to convince us that they are being hated...so basically society doesn't need to take it seriously.

[chi pan]

We're comparing ancient (biblical) morality to modern (human) morality. Ancient morality is inferior.

well morality is not the same as law. there are many stupid laws today that i'm sure you don't agree with. they had a reason for those laws and the reason lies in the culture.

The few good morals you can find in the bible, love your neighbor as yourself, do not murder (that one in particular atheists obey more than religious followers as a whole) etc. are all old news to us in todays society.

is that so? why does most society not follow these things then? do not steal- how many pirating sites are there? do not lie - how many people cheat and plagiarise? it seams your arguement is flawed.

There is nothing new that the bible can teach us that mankind doesn't already know and no more good than man doesn't already practice.

gee i wonder where it all came from? morality as we know it today can be traced back to religion whether you like it or not. and is it not true that it's better to learn from the source than hearsay?
and if the bible has nothing new to teach us, why is it morality is getting more and more rediculous in America? a criminal can sue someone when they trip and hurt themselves in their house that they've broken into..... and win. people are suing fast food resteraunts b/c they are eating their food and getting fat.

the fact of the matter is our morallity is not getting better it's getting worse. today's morality is "it's only wrong if you get caught." we need some sort of doctrine to teach people common sense b/c as we've proven over and over, society does not just know common sense.

Homosexuality is only illegal in intolerant countries. Slowly but surely gay rights are being made into laws which pisses fundie Christians right off...remind me again, aren't anger and judging both sins??

well is that so? is that why Ohio is trying to get a state constitutional ammendment to try and make it illegal? it's not intolerant in the same way it's not intolerant that bestiality, polygamy, and necrofilia is illegal.

Your theory, Chipan, that homophobia is a term invented by homosexuals means that in return religious persecution can be seen as just a farce invented by Christians to convince us that they are being hated

for the last time they are not hated. we simply say that they are wrong in their actions. we do not hold anything against what they are but what they do. the same for petifiles.

[Jackalope]

Of course morality isn't the same as law. I don't recall claiming it was.

However, law reflects the moral and cultural values of the lawmakers. So tell me, who was responsible for biblical law? Man, or god?

[chi pan]

Of course morality isn't the same as law. I don't recall claiming it was.

good, then i'm sure you can understand why you can't look at the torah (book of laws) without looking at the culture.

[Jackalope]

Of course morality isn't the same as law. I don't recall claiming it was.

good, then i'm sure you can understand why you can't look at the torah (book of laws) without looking at the culture.

Well, no shit.

Would you mind answering the question, rather than dodging it? I'll refresh your memory. Who is the lawgiver in biblical law, man or god?

[chi pan]

good, then we are in agreeance

[Jackalope]

good, then we are in agreeance

I doubt it.

Note the second dodge of my question. I suspect you don't want to answer the question because you suspect where the answer will lead - however you answer.

[chi pan]

well i meant on the fact that in order to understand what's in the torah you must look at the culture at the time and the original hebrew word definitions