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RE: Knowing everything and allowing evil
March 13, 2012 at 3:48 am
Well I would think that evil was a bi product of humans, as in to create something (or indeed anything) it cannot be perfect as it is not God therefore God decided that rather than sit around all day thinking that he could not create anything he created a solution. Why not give people a choice? Not a choice of do bad, no we are all bad but a choice of either be an average human or try to be good and then get Christ to forgive you. In answer to the question, everyone is evil and if God where to just pick everyone 1 good person he came across that would be a) stupid because the whole point is that you give people a choice not just just create the good ones as then the good would become bad. Point A is a bit like Adam and Eve that their command was simple, it was not do not kill or do not steal... it was do not eat a fruit just one. Yet the "good" Adam and Eve did it anyway and were kicked out of the garden, this recount shows humans to be disobedient and will do the wrong thing every time. b) So therefore point A sort of shows there to be no good person only a person who is forgiven because they do what God wants.
Parva leves capuint animas but then again crazy stuff is so tempting
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RE: Knowing everything and allowing evil
March 13, 2012 at 1:56 pm
(This post was last modified: March 13, 2012 at 2:00 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
So, before human beings, there was nothing that could be called "evil". Say one monkey stabbed another, and then played around in the hole while spitting in the wounded monkey's eyes (maybe he jacked off into the wounded monkey's asshole too..just for good measure)? Fair enough, we don't have to call that evil. So, since "evil" is just a bi-product why not "good"? Why not "tasty", perhaps "bright", oh, and while we're at it, why not "god"?
You might have to elaborate just a little bit more on why making everyone good would be stupid, isn't that the point of christianity in the first place, the point of the example of christ, so that maybe, just maybe, everyone might be good (or at least good enough to get through the gates)? Maybe sending christ down was stupid, perhaps christianity with all of its absolute moral laws is stupid? Also, at what point would good become bad just because you say so?
Garbage, complete and utter garbage. Put a little more thought into the things that cross your mind and they might come out better.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Knowing everything and allowing evil
March 14, 2012 at 3:08 am
(March 13, 2012 at 3:48 am)Some guy Wrote:
Not to be dissentious, but the Bible does clearly state the evil was a creation of God in contemporary translations. Therefore if we define evil as objectifiable and creatable, God would be the creator of it. Not that I define it that way. Does God cause calamity? I would say yes. Is that calamity good or bad? That depends on your perspective. Is doing something bad for a greater good make it evil? Guess that also depends on your perspective.
"There ought to be a term that would designate those who actually follow the teachings of Jesus, since the word 'Christian' has been largely divorced from those teachings, and so polluted by fundamentalists that it has come to connote their polar opposite: intolerance, vindictive hatred, and bigotry." -- Philip Stater, Huffington Post
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RE: Knowing everything and allowing evil
March 14, 2012 at 3:52 am
I lay a gun on a table and then put it on the safety catch, take out its ammunition, hide that in a box, lock the box, put the key in my house and then leave the gun (with my house locked too). Someone comes along and breaks into my house, breaks into locked box, takes ammunition, loads gun, takes off safety catch and kills a small child. How am I responsible?(not the killer the owner of the gun) I made reasonable precautions to stop the gun from being used yet someone was determined and still used it. Not my fault. Adam and Eve were commanded by God (the person they knew to be all powerful and stuff) to not eat of the tree, God did not place the tree next to where they were all the time but away from them. This shows the pair to have disobeyed God, taken conscious measures to get to the tree and then eaten of it. God did not create sin, all he did was create an opportunity that should not be used. I should not have to lock my door as in the Bible it says do not steal, but I do as people still steal. God did not have to give Adam and Eve massive knowledge for them to realise their they should not eat of the tree, so he did not and God did not have to chain the tree up and set up a guard post. The point of the recount of Adam and Eve is to show we always do the wrong thing, at least once, even if it it is simple. God did not create sin, he made an opportunity and if anyone made sin it would be the Diablo. Even if God knew that does not matter, he gives you free will and you choose whether he knew you were going to do something stupid or not. If God just sat around thinking "Oh if I create anything it will all do something stupid, so therefore I should not do anything" nothing would happen. God instead decides that it is not his fault we do stuff badly, it is the thing with the mind and in this case angles and humans. God did not create sin.
Parva leves capuint animas but then again crazy stuff is so tempting
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RE: Knowing everything and allowing evil
March 14, 2012 at 4:50 am
(This post was last modified: March 14, 2012 at 4:50 am by tackattack.)
I didn't say sin, I said evil. According to scripture,
Isaiah 45:7 (King James Version):
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
If you want to take it figuratively, than the opposite of good (definition of God relative to this instance) would still be bad (practical definition of evil) and still created by God. Sin is based on a rejection of God's will. If you broadly define evil as anything contrary to God/God's will then by existing He created it. In your scenario you are partly responsible for having the gun in the first place as I'm sure someone will point out. Most athesists I've spoken with assume evil is an unnecessary part of creation. I personally don't belive that this is so and I have no problem accepting the Bible's stance that it was created by God. I'm not saying that God tempts men to sin, or can sin, or causes sin. But I can't really jsutify God not creating evil, even just if it's by definition of an objectifiable constant.
"There ought to be a term that would designate those who actually follow the teachings of Jesus, since the word 'Christian' has been largely divorced from those teachings, and so polluted by fundamentalists that it has come to connote their polar opposite: intolerance, vindictive hatred, and bigotry." -- Philip Stater, Huffington Post
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RE: Knowing everything and allowing evil
March 14, 2012 at 5:34 am
(March 14, 2012 at 3:52 am)Some guy Wrote: I lay a gun on a table and then put it on the safety catch, take out its ammunition, hide that in a box, lock the box, put the key in my house and then leave the gun (with my house locked too). Someone comes along and breaks into my house, breaks into locked box, takes ammunition, loads gun, takes off safety catch and kills a small child. How am I responsible?(not the killer the owner of the gun) I made reasonable precautions to stop the gun from being used yet someone was determined and still used it. Not my fault.
If you knew that a person would break into the house, break into the box, take the gun, take the ammunition, load it and shoot a child - and knowing all that, you still chose to put the gun in that very box, in that very house - then you are responsible and it is your fault as well. Just as god knew what Adam and Eve would do and therefore he is responsible as well.
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RE: Knowing everything and allowing evil
March 14, 2012 at 2:35 pm
God knew but allowed it because we needed free will and what we use it on is of course of our OWN free will. Knowing what is going to happen does not make you responsible, especially (like with God) you give the person the chance and choice not to and if he does not take it then his fault. Knowing his answer is irrelevant, giving the choice is the important part and that is what God does.
Parva leves capuint animas but then again crazy stuff is so tempting
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RE: Knowing everything and allowing evil
March 14, 2012 at 2:39 pm
(This post was last modified: March 14, 2012 at 2:40 pm by NoMoreFaith.)
(March 14, 2012 at 2:35 pm)Some guy Wrote: God knew but allowed it because we needed free will and what we use it on is of course of our OWN free will. Knowing what is going to happen does not make you responsible, especially (like with God) you give the person the chance and choice not to and if he does not take it then his fault. Knowing his answer is irrelevant, giving the choice is the important part and that is what God does.
Except indications are that we have no control over our decisions. This was discussed minus God in the discussion on free will. All we are able to show scientifically is that your subconscious makes its mind up without your knowledge, and your conscious simply rationalises it rather than act independently.
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RE: Knowing everything and allowing evil
March 14, 2012 at 3:31 pm
(This post was last modified: March 14, 2012 at 3:33 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
You have no chance or choice when a precog is invoked. None, merely an illusion. If you want your omni-everything god, he's going to have to accept omni-everything responsibility. Or, you could just start whittling away your gods super-powers so as to make us culpable for this or that.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Knowing everything and allowing evil
March 14, 2012 at 4:16 pm
(March 14, 2012 at 2:35 pm)Some guy Wrote: God knew but allowed it because we needed free will and what we use it on is of course of our OWN free will. Knowing what is going to happen does not make you responsible, especially (like with God) you give the person the chance and choice not to and if he does not take it then his fault. Knowing his answer is irrelevant, giving the choice is the important part and that is what God does.
Yes, it does. Its called the sin of omission, something you christians are very fond of.
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