What is on my mind at the moment

[Justtristo]

Lately for various reasons I have been going through a rough patch. Maybe it has influenced what I am feeling about all these issues, which I am going to discuss about below.

First of all I will admit that I am not really spiritual and philosophically I would agree fully with the Metaphysical Naturalists that all there is nature and natural phenomenon which can be observed by scientifically. Secondly, I will admit that superstitions of all sort (not just of the religious type) are a cancer on our society and need to purged from our society in order for humanity to reach its full potential.

However I am critical of some well known Atheists, their rhetoric and tactics which I believe is counterproductive towards achieving a secular society and more rational, critical and scientific thinking among the public. Not to mention I struggle to explain the sort of opposition they hold against religion, other than those reasons I have written above.

Because the religious people I have known in my life (including quite devout ones) I have found to be pretty good people, even if I disagree with what they believe in and some religious people I know broadly agree with me on many issues (even including marriage equality). So I am not opposed to religion as such and only desire the following;

1. A strict separation between church and state be established and maintained.

2. Reforming the education system so that children are taught how to think, especially critically (which is a important aspect of the scientific method). Along with comprehensive comparative religious studies along the lines proposed by Daniel Dennett.

[NoMoreFaith]

I would broadly agree with everything there, except the statement "all superstitions". Some superstitions are entirely harmless, and are part of what makes humans quirky and interesting.

I think there is definitely an argument that absolute logic and rationalism takes away some of the essential ingredients of what makes us human. The ability to be irrational, is part of what makes us love, and be creative in my opinion. Superstition is very much part of that, intrinsic to it.

EDIT: However, when superstition becomes self-authenticating private fact, when inflicted on the rights of others, becomes a curse, plague and deserves to be wiped out.

In terms of some skeptics, its a well known comment, that the greatest danger to christianity and islam, are the fundamentalist christians and muslims themselves. Likewise with skepticism, utter, overly aggresive skepticism which actually seeks to humiliate and degrade anyone with even an ounce of superstitious belief, simply doesn't do us any favours I feel.

[Autumnlicious]

First of all I will admit that I am not really spiritual and philosophically I would agree fully with the Metaphysical Naturalists that all there is nature and natural phenomenon which can be observed by scientifically.

Why do you say that?

Secondly, I will admit that superstitions of all sort (not just of the religious type) are a cancer on our society and need to purged from our society in order for humanity to reach its full potential.

Not gonna happen as long as we're human. Magical thinking, while corrosive for decision making, is often used as a way of enduring life. In fact, most statements we might make in daily life about dealing with others might fall under the category of 'magical thinking', as for the most part speculation about someone else's mind is, well, speculation.

I'm not terribly sure that most of the things I react to are logically intercepted and categorized -- in fact, more often it gets interpreted in an emotional context. I'm fairly certain most people deal with the former like the latter.

However I am critical of some well known Atheists, their rhetoric and tactics which I believe is counterproductive towards achieving a secular society and more rational, critical and scientific thinking among the public. Not to mention I struggle to explain the sort of opposition they hold against religion, other than those reasons I have written above.

I suppose a fundamental opposition of believing in things without evidence might not be the only reason why popular Atheists reject religious nonsense. Fanfare, money and activism can be just as likely a motivator.

Because the religious people I have known in my life (including quite devout ones) I have found to be pretty good people, even if I disagree with what they believe in and some religious people I know broadly agree with me on many issues (even including marriage equality). So I am not opposed to religion as such and only desire the following;

Most people don't have their magical thinking tested everyday and forced to endure the consequences of such beliefs. This allows for rather ugly spots to develop in otherwise upstanding people.

Mind you, I didn't speak about religion, but towards magical thinking.

1. A strict separation between church and state be established and maintained.

2. Reforming the education system so that children are taught how to think, especially critically (which is a important aspect of the scientific method). Along with comprehensive comparative religious studies along the lines proposed by Daniel Dennett.

Both won't happen as it directly will force people to confront their magical thinking. While the above is a laudable goal, any implementation of it would come only very slowly and in bits and pieces, if ever.

[Minimalist]

I hate to be the one to break this to you, Just but your items 1 and 2 are on the hit list of the jesus freaks and their new superstar Rick "The Holy Scumbag" Santorum.

[Justtristo]

I hate to be the one to break this to you, Just but your items 1 and 2 are on the hit list of the jesus freaks and their new superstar Rick "The Holy Scumbag" Santorum.

I can only speak for Australia, where the only reason why objective 1 has not been achieved to the extent it should have, is namely the sheer apathy of the secular majority. That has allowed religious activists to more easily achieve their goals than their share of the population would normally allow for.

In the United States you do have the First Admendment and Judges quite willing to use it to restrict the efforts of religious activists. I cant see that changing anytime soon.

[Aardverk]

Sorry you are going through a bad patch but I think your reasoning is nevertheless absolutely spot on.

Atheism does not need mindless fundamentalists, it needs people willing to speak up intelligently when they hear beliefs being peddled as fact - such as teaching children about the baby Jesus, blah, blah, blah, etc. THAT is a very difficult thing to do but once that child has been indoctrinated it may take them half a lifetime to recover from the abuse they have suffered.

I do agree that some high profile atheists have done harm as well as good but I also recognise that they have brought the strength of feeling of downtrodden atheists into the public domain. So many people live such sheltered lives that they are not even aware that many around them are not Christian. The reason they are not aware is that the atheists around them are reluctant or even scared to stand up and be counted. In some countries and regions, you can hardly blame them.

Getting the balance right is the problem. Religion has stomped on detractors for thousands of years and it still tries very hard to do so. Anyone who speaks up has to be prepared for some pretty nasty consequences. Religion even splits up families.

What really does atheism harm is childish insults and gratuitous swearing by atheists intended simply to shock or upset the Christian. It is pathetic behaviour which does far more harm to atheists than it will ever do to Christianity. Reasonable debate is needed, not unreasonable swearing and shouting. If you try to shock a Christian by swearing at them, either in real life or on a forum, it is YOU that looks the fool and you will have simply reinforced their belief that atheists are nasty people.

Similarly, there are a few idiots on this forum who seem to think that they are winning a debate just because they are making more insults! They don't seem to realise that everyone else can see straight through their insults to the fact that they are not making any coherent case. Sad really.

[KichigaiNeko]

How on earth can you say THAT Trist?

WHERE is religion interfering in Australian politics?? Or are you subjected (against your will) to the interference-sorry HELP from organisations like the Baptists or Salvo's?

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ATM the Green's are the biggest perpetrators of "Bleeding hearts" we have in this country.

[Aardverk]

I can only speak for Australia, where the only reason why objective 1 has not been achieved to the extent it should have, is namely the sheer apathy of the secular majority.

I'm sure someone will correct me but I think the theoretical Head of State for Australia is still 'The Queen of The United Kingdom and the Commonwealth'. Said queen is also the Head of the Church of England, thus making C of E the official State religion. No?

You need to completely get rid of the Queen or did you already do that? I have a memory like a sieve for such irrelevant matters.

[KichigaiNeko]

No deary ...welcome to Oz... we have no regard for religion in our politics, a healthy disregard and hatred for our 'Pollies' and tolerate "Lizzie" as she is just a really nice person.

There IS NO "Official" state religion except maybe scepticism. Have another beer and "She'll be right mate"

[Justtristo]

How on earth can you say THAT Trist?

WHERE is religion interfering in Australian politics?? Or are you subjected (against your will) to the interference-sorry HELP from organisations like the Baptists or Salvo's?

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ATM the Green's are the biggest perpetrators of "Bleeding hearts" we have in this country.

Let me state that the Christians have much more power in our political system than warranted for their share of the electorate (which is quite handily outnumbered by Atheists), rather than interference as such.

Well recently a parliamentary committee investigated into introducing a bill for marriage equality into the federal parliament. The committee decided that the politicians "consult" their electorates about this issue and report back to the committee.

Despite strong majority support for marriage equality, the MP's reported back that there was not much support for marriage equality.

Although I do admit my social networks at the moment is comprised of a far higher percentage of practising Christians than the Australian population as a whole.