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RE: The burden of proof relating to conciousness, free choice and rationality
February 26, 2012 at 1:52 pm
(February 25, 2012 at 8:34 am)Rhythm Wrote: Of course I can deny that Marx. You ruled free will out in your own hypothetical and I've never seen anyone establish exactly what free will is in the first place here in the real world, beyond your hypothetical.
I havent ruled free will out I have just stated that free will and scientific materialism are incompatible.
Quote: You can choose to ignore reason and rational thinking,
How can I choose this without free will?
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RE: The burden of proof relating to conciousness, free choice and rationality
February 26, 2012 at 1:57 pm
(This post was last modified: February 26, 2012 at 2:06 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
You did rule out free will in your hypothetical. Maybe you didn't intend to?
Free will as defined by whom? I could define free will as the illusion of choice that is the effect of the vast number of variables that are too great for our minds to comprehend. We surely seem to be making choices (to us), but are we?
If free will is an illusion (and it may very well be) then you are "making choices"...despite the non-existence of "free will". Down the rabbit hole we go. What you believe you may be doing, or what you feel you may be doing is not always an accurate picture of reality. We can agree on that count can't we?
Perhaps, and I'm just spitballing here, "free will" is an inadequate or deficient description of reality. A gross oversimplification that is not technically speaking correct, but is still practically useful for us as human beings in how we perceive our interactions with the world. Judging from it's source (ourselves) and specifically it's most ardent advocates from within that small source group (the religiously minded) we have every reason to approach the issue with a healthy dose of skepticism.
With human beings, and concepts that we have created, it's not always a matter of what's "right", but what "works well enough".
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: The burden of proof relating to conciousness, free choice and rationality
February 26, 2012 at 4:33 pm
I think free will is an illusion. With enough data and a complex enough model all choices can be predicted. You also spoke of quantum mechanics and the idea that every decision that could happen does happen in a parallel universe. I think that might be true and our perception that time is linear is an illusion.
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RE: The burden of proof relating to conciousness, free choice and rationality
February 26, 2012 at 6:15 pm
On that note, if every decision that could happen does happen in a parallel universe, than every single prediction of the future or a future choice ever made was absolutely correct. The trick becomes lining up your prediction with a specific parallel.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: The burden of proof relating to conciousness, free choice and rationality
February 26, 2012 at 8:02 pm
I just wish I could become unstuck in the multiverse and travel through all the six dimensions of the multiverse. I've got three down and can move in one direction in the fourth, now if I could willfully skip between realities I'd be set. I would shif to the reality where the singularity has already happened and would live forever as a cyborg.
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RE: The burden of proof relating to conciousness, free choice and rationality
February 26, 2012 at 8:18 pm
If you ever figure that out, can you deliever a small box to the singularity for me? Don't you worry about the wires and slight smell of sulphur.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: The burden of proof relating to conciousness, free choice and rationality
February 26, 2012 at 8:29 pm
Well, according the multiverse worldview I both already have and will in the future... AND I didn't and wouldn't... SO Yes and No.  
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RE: The burden of proof relating to conciousness, free choice and rationality
February 29, 2012 at 9:40 pm
Quote:"Aura imaging"? Oh please. What's next, Kirlian photography? There is NO credible evidence fort the existence of the human aura.Period.
The aura is the electromagnetic field around the body and the electromagnetic field around the body is the aura. The word aura has associated terms that you view as irrational but the two are synonymous!
Quote:WHAT? Are you REALLY that ignorant or just stupid?
Ad hominem my friend maybe when you move out of your parents basement you will gain the life experience needed to understand what Im saying!
Quote:You head your thread with;"the burden of proof-"which suggests you understand the meaning of the term.However,you have made it very clear you have no idea.
I challenge any man atheist, agnostic or theist to live 24 hours in which he believes intrinsically that free choice does not exist. When you can empirically experience the absolute denial of free will for 24 hours than maybe I will take your objections seriously! You can quote 'rational' terms and ideology but they cannot be empirically translated to any and all world views that your 'rational' mind can experience in the reality you perceive. Also you forget that the perception of reality depends on the nature of choice, choosing whether to look deep into reality in the flawed perception that you have, or mealy reassign yourself to the house cleaner that was clearly your destiny!
(No offence just the ad hominem that you said earlier fecked me off abit)
Quote:Non sequtior,action does not imply (suggest) or infer(prove) either free will or choice.
You are trying to separate the actions of atomic, molecular (etc.) movements from the reactions that are necessarily going to occur in the scientific paradigm! How is that a Non sequtior!?
Quote:So far,all I see is another airheaded new age crackpot.
So far all I can see is the pathetic lapdog of a follower of science and philosophy, by a person that has no knowledge of either or!
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RE: The burden of proof relating to conciousness, free choice and rationality
February 29, 2012 at 9:42 pm
(This post was last modified: February 29, 2012 at 10:00 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Challenge accepted and completed, I even went the extra mile for you Marx. I have never, nor do I now believe in anything even remotely approximating free will or free choice. So, that experiment has been run for a few decades in my case. Why was this supposed to be challenging btw? Was something amazing supposed to happen?
Speaking of the body's electromagnetic fields and your "aura" garbage, do compasses spin wildly when you hold them? If not why not?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: The burden of proof relating to conciousness, free choice and rationality
February 29, 2012 at 9:46 pm
<checks watch, coughs politely>
(February 25, 2012 at 2:48 pm)Stimbo Wrote: Here's a little something to chew over. What would a Universe in which free will doesn't exist look like compared with one in which it does? Could there even be a way to tell them apart?
While I realise I'm frequently mistaken for being absent, a little acknowledgement never goes amiss; even if it's only "go away, boy, you bother me" or similar.
At the age of five, Skagra decided emphatically that God did not exist. This revelation tends to make most people in the universe who have it react in one of two ways - with relief or with despair. Only Skagra responded to it by thinking, 'Wait a second. That means there's a situation vacant.'
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