Why are Christians against evolution?

[peace2u]

From the comments I’ve made and been involved in, the following video will hopefully clarify the matter regarding Evolution.

Theory of Evolution - An Islamic Viewpoint

[youtube]y-_BDLNfcOc[/youtube]

[Kyuuketsuki]

Because Evolution is a theory and not a fact hence 'The Theory of Evolution', if it was fact then it would be called 'The Fact of Evolution'. You cannot base your existence on a theory.

And frankly only a scientifically illiterate idiot would say something like that because a scientific theory is the highest form of explanation available in science implying nothing of uncertainty and in fact being a fully fledged explanation including complete explanations and mechanisms of how something works rather than, as your remarks imply, a hunch or a guess.

Go and learn some fucking science!

Kyu

[Cleanthes]

peace2u, thank you for contributing - it's interesting to learn something about the Islamic viewpoint.

I do feel, however, that you're missing the point of this thread. I didn't want arguments for/against evolution per se - those would probably go the 'Science' section, or a new thread. Nor am I looking for a particularly long discussion of the topic - I'm not a scientist and would get pretty lost, although I'm sure some of the other guys here would be happy to discuss it with you.

Instead, I'm asking whether people think there is anything about being a Christian (or Muslim, I suppose, there's bound to be some crossover) that requires you to reject evolution (see the OP). If you refer to my last post, you can see why I think the point being made in the video (evolution is unscientific) doesn't respond to that.

If you have anything regarding the OP though, I'd be glad to hear it. It'd be interesting to talk more on the topic in the video elsewhere, although I suspect this forum might not be the best arena for interfaith dialogue!

Thanks

Cleanthes

[Darwinian]

Why are Christians against evolution? Right, let's have a go.

I suspect that a lot of Christians have no problem with it at all but those who do would probably argue that it is against genesis. Also, rather than human kind being somehow special it demotes us to simply an animal in that we are just the same as any other life form on the planet.

[bozo]

peace2u, thank you for contributing - it's interesting to learn something about the Islamic viewpoint.

I do feel, however, that you're missing the point of this thread. I didn't want arguments for/against evolution per se - those would probably go the 'Science' section, or a new thread. Nor am I looking for a particularly long discussion of the topic - I'm not a scientist and would get pretty lost, although I'm sure some of the other guys here would be happy to discuss it with you.

Instead, I'm asking whether people think there is anything about being a Christian (or Muslim, I suppose, there's bound to be some crossover) that requires you to reject evolution (see the OP). If you refer to my last post, you can see why I think the point being made in the video (evolution is unscientific) doesn't respond to that.

If you have anything regarding the OP though, I'd be glad to hear it. It'd be interesting to talk more on the topic in the video elsewhere, although I suspect this forum might not be the best arena for interfaith dialogue!

Thanks

Cleanthes

I'd like to ask you this question:

You say you are a christian but accept evolution. Do you think that evolution is part of " God's plan "? i.e. created by God.

[Eilonnwy]

I don't have time to read through all the posts, but I'd like to point out, in case it hasn't been already, but not all Christians deny evolution. As a recovering Catholic, I can say I was honestly surprised when I found out there was an actual controversy over Creationism vs Evolution. Catholics are taught that evolution is true and that the story of Adam and Eve is metaphorical. Obviously we know the problems with that when we get into Jesus, but that's not the point. I know this is my mother's stance as a practicing Catholic.

[Tiberius]

As much as there are scientists who support evolution, there are as many scientists who don’t support it. That's why it's not an established scientific fact. For example the earth is spherical is a fact, so if evolution was a fact then it will be an established scientific fact and everybody would agree.

I could point you to some scientists who claim the Earth is flat. Just visit http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/ and ask how many people there believe the Earth is flat and also have science degrees. We do not distinguish what is fact and what is fiction by the number of people who support it. We distinguish what is fact and what is fiction by the evidence that supports it, since evidence is always impartial.

Just so we get a real world example, suppose your mother was charged with murder, and she maintained her innocence. She pleaded with you that she was innocent, she begged you to believe her, and you did, because she was your mother and she has never lied to you before. However in court a video tape is revealed that clearly shows her murdering the victim. Your belief was wrong, the evidence is always correct. Even if the entire courtroom believed your mother was innocent, a single piece of evidence (the tape) could destroy their belief in an instant.

This sounds simple so why would anyone need to get an education to understand this? Even Darwin had questions he could not explain or the find the answer to his idea (the intermediate stage or the missing link of the evolution process).

Theories always make predictions, and Darwin made his. He predicted transitional fossils, and we found them. Using the theory, we accurately predicted the location (both geographically and in the correct strata) of the fossil Tiktaalik, which is a transitional form between fish and reptile.

From the comments I’ve made and been involved in, the following video will hopefully clarify the matter regarding Evolution.

Theory of Evolution - An Islamic Viewpoint

Your video fails in the first 10 seconds. As we have told you, look up the definition of a scientific theory, not a "theory" that is simply an idea. Any argument that stars from this misconception is simply wrong.

[Kyuuketsuki]

He also failed (and I missed it because I was basically bored of reading his sh**) to understand that the number of scientists subscribing to the theory of evolution outnumbers those who don't by 100 to 1 and that NO relevant scientists (i.e. those who publish papers in the biological sciences) reject it.

Kyu

[peace2u]

If you have anything regarding the OP though, I'd be glad to hear it. It'd be interesting to talk more on the topic in the video elsewhere, although I suspect this forum might not be the best arena for interfaith dialogue!

I hope my following comments covers the original points.

1: Evolution contradicts the Bible ('we can't say the earth is 6000 years old')
Don’t really know the in-depth of the Bible, only covered the surface but the Quran doesn’t say the age of the Earth but however the Quran does mentions the Big Bang fact and so it does not go against the age of the earth according to established scientific facts.

2: Evolution insults human dignity ('we can't say we're different from animals')
According to Islam animals live based on their instinct or in order words, what they were programmed to do. However, humans have free will and are the highest level of God’s creation. Animals reproduce, eat and sleep, while Humans do more than that by having the free will to make positive contributions to the society. I mean you cannot say that the nature of humans and animals are similar whereby there are animals that are cannibalistic by nature (black widow spider).

3: Evolution defeats arguments to design (we can't say 'God made that!')
In Islam God is the designer of all things (Humans, Mountains, Sea, Animals and etc). If you look at the perfect design of the Humans, Animals and Plants, it is impossible that all of these had come by chance, even many scientist agree that it is impossible that we had come by chance.

4: Evolution leaves no room for the doctrine of the Fall (we can't explain where right and wrong come from)
God is the creator of man so he knows what is right and wrong for them. No wonder the law of UK is consistently changing because of the growing problems of the society.

5: Religion and Science are naturally conflicting ('whose side are you on?')
Islam and science do not conflict; in fact there are over 1000 verses in the Quran which supports established scientific facts before they were proven by man. See http://atheistforums.org/thread-1147-page-3.html (Thread 25)

In Islam, we say that humans change but do not evolve because that’s not our purpose and not what God created man for. Humans can become stronger, faster, and more intelligent but we cannot evolve into growing wings and being able to fly. The first humans to be created were Adam and Eve and even now there are scientists who are try to prove that we all came from a single male and female, which would hopefully be proven in the near future. And no, evolution is not part of God’s plan.


I would be very happy to have an interfaith dialogue if you wish. You can either email me or send me a private message regarding any issue.

[Kyuuketsuki]

1: Evolution contradicts the Bible ('we can't say the earth is 6000 years old')
Don’t really know the in-depth of the Bible, only covered the surface but the Quran doesn’t say the age of the Earth but however the Quran does mentions the Big Bang fact and so it does not go against the age of the earth according to established scientific facts.

The Quran does not describe the big bang (which actually wasn't an explosion in the sense of what we would consider an explosion anyway).

2: Evolution insults human dignity ('we can't say we're different from animals')
According to Islam animals live based on their instinct or in order words, what they were programmed to do. However, humans have free will and are the highest level of God’s creation. Animals reproduce, eat and sleep, while Humans do more than that by having the free will to make positive contributions to the society. I mean you cannot say that the nature of humans and animals are similar whereby there are animals that are cannibalistic by nature (black widow spider).

So your dignity is insulted ... so fucking what?

It's debatable whether we truly have free will and any god that is omniscient logically denies the possibility of free will.

3: Evolution defeats arguments to design (we can't say 'God made that!')
In Islam God is the designer of all things (Humans, Mountains, Sea, Animals and etc). If you look at the perfect design of the Humans, Animals and Plants, it is impossible that all of these had come by chance, even many scientist agree that it is impossible that we had come by chance.

The god of the theistic evolution is far, far more powerful than that of the literalist like you because the theistic evolutionist's god rolled the die and knew how everything would turn out instead of having to perform individual creative acts. I don't believe in any gods not even that one but it (and I think that is Cleanthes one) is more rational than yours.

4: Evolution leaves no room for the doctrine of the Fall (we can't explain where right and wrong come from)
God is the creator of man so he knows what is right and wrong for them. No wonder the law of UK is consistently changing because of the growing problems of the society.

Evolution very much is able to demonstrate where right and wrong come from as long as you understand that right and wrong is a man-made concept and that what actually is wrong or right varies across time and culture and as such there are no fixed correctnesses (for lack of abetter word).

5: Religion and Science are naturally conflicting ('whose side are you on?')
Islam and science do not conflict; in fact there are over 1000 verses in the Quran which supports established scientific facts before they were proven by man. See http://atheistforums.org/thread-1147-page-3.html (Thread 25)

Islam and science conflict, the bible and science conflict.

There are in fact no (ZERO, NADA, ZIP) verses in the Quran that are in any way scientific ... all of them require you (the interpreter) to twist their meaning to fit current day knowledge.

In Islam, we say that humans change but do not evolve because that’s not our purpose and not what God created man for. Humans can become stronger, faster, and more intelligent but we cannot evolve into growing wings and being able to fly. The first humans to be created were Adam and Eve and even now there are scientists who are try to prove that we all came from a single male and female, which would hopefully be proven in the near future. And no, evolution is not part of God’s plan.

Then in Islam you're wrong. You're also wrong that scientists seek the first man and woman ... they seek our ancestors true and there is a hypothetical forbear referred to as "Mitochondrial Eve" but that is just a poetic description of a common ancestor who would have been the first female to have been classified as a human ape.

Kyu