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RE: Why do Athiests require 'proof' that God exists?
May 9, 2012 at 8:17 pm
I'm not speaking for anyone else here, but the only way I see myself believing in any deity is through sound historical reasoning. I have no problems in accepting the reasoning that God works in supernatural ways because that is supposed to be the nature of God. But what theists don't realise is that their only line of evidence is to show why their book is correct and how through the tangible evidence that is history.
Most religions have had the right idea, which was to tell people about their god visiting us as a human which seems to be the only reasonable way for a god to communicate with us, except so far most of them seem a bit suss in a historical manner.
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it" ~ Aristotle
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RE: Why do Athiests require 'proof' that God exists?
May 9, 2012 at 8:19 pm
(May 9, 2012 at 12:40 pm)Faith No More Wrote: Could you elaborate on that?
"If metaphysical naturalism is true, then all beliefs are fully explainable in terms of non-rational causes."
Given metaphysical naturalism (and its inherent causal closure thesis), reality is comprised of space, matter, energy, and forces, and the physical laws which govern them; so nothing exists but that which either can be described in purely natural terms or is reducible to such terms. As such, one's mental activity is reducible to brain activity, which is constituted by matter and energy and the physical laws governing their behavior. Therefore, such mental furniture as "metaphysical naturalism is true" is nothing more than signals firing along synaptic pathways in one's frontal lobe; it is not a product of rational inference but of particular biochemical activity of the brain, in as much as the mental furniture "true" and "rational inference" likewise are. There is no frame of reference transcending the brain's activity, so one is denied any intelligible basis for evaluating certain synaptic activity against other synaptic activity. Nothing is true or better or incorrect—such things are just biochemical brain states.
(May 9, 2012 at 4:24 pm)ChadWooters Wrote: If you cannot defend materialism against challenges, then ...
... then it is rank hypocrisy (and sweet irony) to hear you crow about theists who cannot defend their view against challenges.
Man is a rational animal who always loses his temper when
called upon to act in accordance with the dictates of reason.
(Oscar Wilde)
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RE: Why do Athiests require 'proof' that God exists?
May 9, 2012 at 8:26 pm
(This post was last modified: May 9, 2012 at 8:34 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
What else would you expect human thoughts and concepts to be Ryft? Of course theyre "just" biochemical states, by definition. Nevertheless, some biochemical states describe the environment around them better than others..lol. "Rational inference", btw, biochemical states. Of course, maybe rocks do reason (and simply can't communicate this to us, oh, wait, this one's for you Chad...the "spirit" of the rock reasons)......
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Why do Athiests require 'proof' that God exists?
May 9, 2012 at 8:35 pm
So given the truth of the premises and the valid argument form, the conclusion must follow. Thank you.
Man is a rational animal who always loses his temper when
called upon to act in accordance with the dictates of reason.
(Oscar Wilde)
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RE: Why do Athiests require 'proof' that God exists?
May 9, 2012 at 8:37 pm
(This post was last modified: May 9, 2012 at 8:38 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
"Truth" should never be "given". The strength of materialism is that it isn't simply an argument in which the conclusion must follow.
(lol, couldn't help myself.)
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Why do Athiests require 'proof' that God exists?
May 9, 2012 at 9:03 pm
@ Ryft
From what I remember of theism, logic/reason is grounded in God. God then is the absolute standard of truth and from this one might conclude that absolute laws of logic exist because they reflect the absolute nature of God.
What I don't understand though is why one cannot say that the cosmos has intrinsic objective laws? The objective laws of logic exist by being a reflection of the nature of the objective universe. Why does it seem to you that only in God one can have an absolute standard of truth from which logic reflects? What does God provide that the universe by itself doesn't in other words?
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"The lord doesn't work in mysterious ways, but in ways that are indistinguishable from his nonexistence."
-- George Yorgo Veenhuyzen quoted by John W. Loftus in The End of Christianity (p. 103).
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RE: Why do Athiests require 'proof' that God exists?
May 9, 2012 at 10:48 pm
Quote:"Truth" should never be "given".
The truth of the premise is always assumed in formal logic. Hence,a logical proposition is always expressed "IF A-----"
Logic guarantees truth if and only if the premise has been proved to be true--and there's the rub. I reject the the notion that proof can be determined by reason alone. Believers disagree and try to evade the burden of proof by the use of special pleading and a host of other logical fallacies.
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RE: Why do Athiests require 'proof' that God exists?
May 9, 2012 at 11:14 pm
(This post was last modified: May 9, 2012 at 11:16 pm by Neo-Scholastic.)
(May 9, 2012 at 10:48 pm)padraic Wrote: I reject the the notion that proof can be determined by reason alone. And you have data to back that up? Maybe some physical evidence? I didn't think so.
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RE: Why do Athiests require 'proof' that God exists?
May 9, 2012 at 11:21 pm
(May 9, 2012 at 11:14 pm)ChadWooters Wrote: (May 9, 2012 at 10:48 pm)padraic Wrote: I reject the the notion that proof can be determined by reason alone. And you have data to back that up? Maybe some physical evidence? I didn't think so.
Hubble telescope found a giant nebula of truth propositions just outside our galaxy. It's sending rationality particles across the universe at light speeds.
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"The lord doesn't work in mysterious ways, but in ways that are indistinguishable from his nonexistence."
-- George Yorgo Veenhuyzen quoted by John W. Loftus in The End of Christianity (p. 103).
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RE: Why do Athiests require 'proof' that God exists?
May 9, 2012 at 11:38 pm
That would make those truth propositions a minimum of twenty thousand years out of date by the time they get here, depending on where the nebula is sitting relative to the Earth, or fifteen hundred minimum if it's above or below the galactic plane. I'm making no comment on a nebula being between galaxies in the first place - I don't want to look silly.
At the age of five, Skagra decided emphatically that God did not exist. This revelation tends to make most people in the universe who have it react in one of two ways - with relief or with despair. Only Skagra responded to it by thinking, 'Wait a second. That means there's a situation vacant.'
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