Where Did the Trinity Teaching Come From?

[Alter2Ego]

Christians and non-Christians alike are confused by the doctrine of the Trinity. In the Word the Father means one thing, the Son means another thing, and Holy Spirit means a third; but all refer to a single God. The Father refers to God’s Love. The Son refers to His Wisdom, or what is the same, Truth. And the Holy Spirit refers to God’s Power. Yet, Nothing is more clear than that God is One, as stated in these representative verses: Hear, O Israel: the Lord our God is one Lord. (Deut. 9:4) …now therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the Lord he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else. (Deut. 4:30) …I have Before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am YHVH and beside me there is no Savior (Isaiah 43:10,11) There is so God else besides me, a just God and a Savior, there is none beside me (Isaiah 45: 21) I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.(Rev. 22:13)

ALTER2EGO -to- CHADWOOTERS:
You correctly concluded that the holy spirit is God's power. However, your conclusion that Jehovah (the Father), Jesus Christ (the created angelic son), and the holy spirit "all refer to a single God" is incorrect. Jehovah and Jesus Christ are two separate and distinct individuals according to the scriptures. The holy spirit is not God; it's an extension of Jehovah's power. God sends it forth to get things done. Throughout the Bible, Jehovah is always the only person in control over the holy spirit. Meanwhile, the Bible says Jesus Christ was created by Jehovah.

"He is the image of the invisible God, the FIRSTBORN of all CREATION;.." (Colossians 1:15)


Being that the pre-human Jesus Christ was created by Jehovah, it's therefore impossible for Jesus to also be combined into a trinity "Godhead" with Almighty God who existed before him.

[NoMoreFaith]

ALTER2EGO -to- CHADWOOTERS:
You correctly concluded that the holy spirit is God's power. However, your conclusion that Jehovah (the Father), Jesus Christ (the created angelic son), and the holy spirit "all refer to a single God" is incorrect.

For shame Chad, The teacher here is only going to give you a B-.

How can you argue with such a comprehensive refutation.

Forgive me if I didn't manage to drip enough sarcasm in those lines.

[Neo-Scholastic]

Jehovah and Jesus Christ are two separate and distinct individuals according to the scriptures… the Bible says Jesus Christ was created by Jehovah.…(Colossians 1:15)…Being that thepre-human Jesus Christ was [/color]created by Jehovah, it's therefore impossible for Jesus to also be combined into a trinity "Godhead" with Almighty God who existed before him.

Solid interpretation comes from treating the Word as a whole. Isolating a single verse, like (Col 1:15) and using it to justify a whole doctrine is bad practice. Like you, my interpretations often fall outside of orthodoxy, but I am able to defend them with extensive biblical support. Compare your one reference to my 25 references from multiple books and dispensations, from Torah, through the Prophets, to Revelations. Not to mention numerous others that point to a Holy Trinity.

But since you have chosen to this one verse, (Col 1:15) one which to hang your doctrine, let’s take a closer look at it and the verses 16 to 19 that follow:

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven. (Col 1:15-19)

Now look at the parallel text from John. Both passages clearly refer to our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ who is our God.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being…And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. (John 1:1-3, 14)

[Phil]

Now look at the parallel text from John. Both passages clearly refer to our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ who is our God.

Just a nitpick, if you are referring to only you and altered states, the correct terminology would be our IMAGINARY lord and savior. Also if it just refers to you and altered, it is extremely arrogant to exclude the myriads of other deluded believers.

If it refers to us all, you are mistaken since as atheists and agnostics we do not have nor need a lord and savior.

[Neo-Scholastic]

If it refers to us all, you are mistaken since as atheists and agnostics we do not have nor need a lord and savior.

He is Lord of all regardless of whether you acknowledge Him or not. And yes, I'm doing it just to piss people like you off :-p Moreover it serves as an object lesson of how the unrighteous burn with anger at everything that is holy. That is how the wicked cast themselves into hell. They cannot stand in the presence of our Lord’s glory.

[Jaysyn]

If it refers to us all, you are mistaken since as atheists and agnostics we do not have nor need a lord and savior.

He is Lord of all regardless of whether you acknowledge Him or not. And yes, I'm doing it just to piss people like you off :-p Moreover it serves as an object lesson of how the unrighteous burn with anger at everything that is holy. That is how the wicked cast themselves into hell. They cannot stand in the presence of our Lord’s glory.

Whatever feeds your delusion kid.

[Alter2Ego]

And He has one name by which He is known: And the Lord shall be King over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and His name one. (Zech. 14:9) …made Your name known [our Lord Jesus Christ] to them, and will make it known, so that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them. (John 17:25) And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name [our Lord Jesus Christ] under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved. (Acts 4:12) Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of [by the authority of Jesus Christ] the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.[that name is our Lord Jesus Christ] (Matt. 28:18)

ALTER2EGO -to- CHADWOOTERS:
I wonder if you realize how difficult it is for people to read your scriptures when you run then all into one paragraph like you've been doing? That's the reason why it's taken me so long to respond to your posts in both of my threads, because I just didn't want to deal with that. It will be easier for others to follow what you write if you separate your scriptures with a blank line between each one.

The verses of scriptures you quoted above are with reference to two entirely different persons—(1) Jehovah the Father and (2) Jesus Christ the created son. You erroneously assigned John 17:25 to Jehovah. (It's actually supposed to be John 17:26) That verse is Jesus Christ praying to Jehovah and telling God that he [Jesus] made God's name [YHWH aka Jehovah] known.

I will quote both verses 25 and 26 below and follow it with several questions to you. The intent of the questions is to help you think logically about what the scriptures are actually saying. I want to make it clear that this is not a contest about who wins or about who outwits the other. The sole objective of this thread and all my threads is to separate religious truth from human philosophical thinking and traditions of men. Jehovah will not accept anything less than true worship.

"God is a Spirit, and those worshiping him must worship with spirit and TRUTH." (John 4:24)



The trinity is pagan and amounts to false worship. By worshipping a 3-prong god that is nowhere to be found in the Judeo-Christian Bible, it amounts to worshipping a god that does not exist. That said, I will now proceed with a close examination of John 17:1, 25-26. Remember, this is Jesus praying to Jehovah. To prove this, I will start off with verse 1 and then skip to verses 25 and 26. Keep you eyes on the words in bold within the quoted verses below, because the questions that follow will be based entirely on those three verses.

"{1} Jesus spoke these things, and raising his eyes to heaven, he said: Father, the hour has come; glorify your son, that your son may glorify you, {25} Righteous Father, the world has, indeed, not come to know you; but I have come to know you; and these have come to know that you sent me forth. {26} And I have made YOUR NAME known to them and will make it known, in order that the love with which YOU LOVED ME may be in them and I in union with them." (John 17:1, 25-26)

QUESTION #1 TO CHADWOOTERS: At John 17:1, it says Jesus was praying to the Father. Since Jesus and Jehovah are supposedly the same god within the fabricated "Godhead," am I supposed to conclude that God was praying to himself?


QUESTION #2 TO CHADWOOTERS: At John 17:1, Jesus said in prayer to Jehovah: "glorify your son, that your son may glorify you." If Jesus and Jehovah are the same god within the pagan Trinity, what's the logic that they should individually glorifying each other? Individually glorifying each other raises a red flag that these are two separate and distinct persons; otherwise, this glorifying of each other would make no logical sense. Give me your thoughts on that.


QUESTION #3 TO CHADWOOTERS: At John 17:25, Jesus said to Jehovah: "Righteous Father…, I have come to know you…." Am I supposed to believe God was having a conversation with himself during which one part of God was telling the other part that God came to know himself?


QUESTION #4 TO CHADWOOTERS: At John 17:25, Jesus said to Jehovah: " you sent me forth…." According to the Trinity definition, the Father, the Son, and the holy ghost are CO-EQUAL. The rules of hierarchy dictate that the one being sent forth is inferior to the one doing the sending. Throughout the scriptures, Jesus is shown taking instructions from Jehovah. It is never the other way around. So what happened to co-equality within the fabricated Trinity "Godhead"?


QUESTION #5 TO CHADWOOTERS: At John 17:26, Jesus told Jehovah in prayer: "I have made YOUR name known." The word "your" is a possessive personal pronoun, and by using the word "your" instead of the word "our," Jesus Christ instantly made it clear that the name he made known (YHWH aka Jehovah) is not his name. Why would Jehovah and Jesus have different names, and why would the one called Jesus have had to make known the name of Jehovah—despite the fact they are supposedly the same god within the Trinity "Godhead"? What sense does any of this make?


QUESTION #6 TO CHADWOOTERS: At John 17:26, Jesus told Jehovah in prayer: "in order that the love with which YOU LOVED ME may be in them." Am I supposed to believe this 3-prong god is telling himself that the part on earth that was doing the praying loves the part in heaven he was talking to and these are still the same god within the Trinity?


BTW: I don't understand what point you're trying to make with the last scripture on the list above at Matthew 28. The verse you meant to write is verse 19 (Matthew 28:19). In any event, suppose you elaborate on why you mentioned it in the list above?


I will await your answers to my questions in this post.

[Anomalocaris]

If it refers to us all, you are mistaken since as atheists and agnostics we do not have nor need a lord and savior.

He is Lord of all regardless of whether you acknowledge Him or not. And yes, I'm doing it just to piss people like you off :-p Moreover it serves as an object lesson of how the unrighteous burn with anger at everything that is holy. That is how the wicked cast themselves into hell. They cannot stand in the presence of our Lord’s glory.

Just think, I had thought here was one christian who still had a functioning brain cell or two.

[Alter2Ego]

1. Is the Trinity a Bible teaching?
2. Did Jesus Christ, the founder of Christianity teach it?

The specific word no, but the concept yes. (Perhaps because that specific word does not exist in Aramaic the spoken language of Christ) Christ Himself identifies The Father in heaven, Himself as the Son, and the Holy Spirit. When He said blaspheme of the Holy Spirit was the only unforgivable sin.

ALTER2EGO -to- DRICH:
Suppose you present scriptures from the Judeo-Christian Bible to prove what you're saying? Telling me that "the concept" of a trinity appears in the Bible while you admit the word "trinity" is not in the Bible indicates you're expressing an opinion. Everybody has opinions. To rise above that, one must present evidence. Without scriptures that prove the existence of a 3-prong god, the "concept" of Trinity exists only in the minds of Trinitarians.

3. Did his early apostles and disciples who accompanied him teach it?

During the ministry of Christ no, it was not till after the day of Pentecost did they come to full revelation of the Holy Spirit of God (in acts chapter 2) Afterwords the Concept of the Holy Spirit is acknowledged and taught.

ALTER2EGO to- DRICH:
If anything, the incident at Pentecost proves that the holy spirit is not a person. But that's another issue. I'm trying to find out from you if Jesus' early apostles and disciples ever went around teaching people that God is a Trinity. You admitted in your response above: "During the ministry of Christ no."

I will be more specific with the question: Did the early apostles and disciples of Jesus Christ teach the Trinity before or after Jesus left the earthly scene? Yes or No?

4. Where does the word "Godhead" come from?
5. Does the word "Trinity" appear anywhere in the Bible?

These terms drive from a doctrine that tries to compile the whole of scriptural teaching in a singular easy to understand concept.

ALTER2EGO to- DRICH:
The word "Godhead" appears at three places in the Judeo-Christian Bible. Do you know whether it was part of the original inspired writings? Yes or no?

You didn't answer question 5: Does the word "Trinity" appear anywhere in the Bible?

[Minimalist]