Where Did the Trinity Teaching Come From?

[Anomalocaris]

I'd rather play Total War, Empires.

[Minimalist]

I'd rather play Total War, Empires.

Me, too. The one thing I hate about playing France is that it is a catholic country and I have to spread that shit around. At least with Rome Total War I would always sack and burn Jerusalem and exterminate the population just for the hell of it.

In reviewing in this thread I came across this bit of "wisdom" from our batshit crazy OPer.

Alter2Ego Wrote: You do understand why the word "and" is used after the semi-colon in verse 6; don't you? The word "and" is used when separating independent clauses. A mere comma could have been used to separate the two statements listed above. But the translator went further by using a semi-colon, which is the strongest indication of an independent clause.

Apparently this shithead does not understand that ancient Greek was written a) in all capitals,
b) without spacing between words
c) without punctuation, and
d) with the use of certain abbreviations.

A demonstration on a 4th century text from the Codex Sinaiticus of some of her holy horseshit is contained on this site.

http://greek-language.com/grklinguist/?p=667

So, when you start whining about commas and semi-colons understand that you are elevating the translator to the status of "holy" author because none of that shit appeared in the original and is merely a human interpretation designed to make it easier for fools like Alter to read.

[Alter2Ego]

How do you reconcile Christ's statement that He and the Father are one, and that the Holy Spirit knows the mind of God. Seems that without being God the Holy Spirit could not know the mind of God.

ALTER2EGO -to- GODSCHILD:
Present the verse of scripture where Jesus says he and the Father are one, and I will explain it to you by means of other scriptures in the Bible.

The holy spirit is an extension of Jehovah's power aka his active force. He owns it. It comes from him. Anytime you see the scriptures referring to the holy spirit as "his" or "him" or "the mind of the spirit" ask yourself: "Who owns the holy spirit?" The answer will always be Jehovah. Therefore the "mind of the holy spirit" is an indirect way of saying "the mind of God." The holy spirit is given the masculine gender "his" and "him" because it belongs to our Heavenly Father who has the masculine gender.

Also Genesis 1 and John 1 establish that all three were present at the creation, so yes scripture does teach the Trinity.

ALTER2EGO -to- GODSCHILD:
Do present me with the exact quotation from Genesis 1 and John 1, and I will explain it to you by means of the scriptures. Be sure and give the chapter and verse from where you're quoting.

In Genesis 3:22 Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like Us, God was not talking to the angels, this is a reference to the Trinity.

ALTER2EGO -to- GODSCHILD:
At Genesis 3:22, Jehovah was talking to his most powerful angelic son, the pre-human Jesus who assisted him in creating all other things.

"{15} He is the image of the invisible God, the FIRSTBORN OF ALL CREATION; {16} because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All other things have been created through him and for him. {17} Also, he is before all other things and by means of him all other things were made to exist." (Colossians 1:15-17)

~***~

[Anomalocaris]

Me, too. The one thing I hate about playing France is that it is a catholic country and I have to spread that shit around. At least with Rome Total War I would always sack and burn Jerusalem and exterminate the population just for the hell of it.

Yes, but Napoleon more than atoned for the sins of France by flicking off the impotent excommunication of the effete escapee pontif.

The problems with total war Rome are:

1. There are no playable sea battles

2. You don't get to throw prisoners over walls with catapults.

[Neo-Scholastic]

At John 17:1, it says Jesus was praying to the Father. Since Jesus and Jehovah are supposedly the same god within the fabricated "Godhead," am I supposed to conclude that God was praying to himself?

Jesus also prayed to the Father from the Cross. About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?"--which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" (Matt 27:46)

The paradox of praying to himself appears only when you ignore the fact that Jesus of Nazareth was God manifest in the flesh. Thus for that brief time in history our Lord expressed himself through two natures: both visible (the image) and invisible (YHVH). In his flesh he shared an outward humanity, prone to pain, suffering, and despair, but inwardly he was divine which gave him the power to overcome. Those conflicting natures were resolved when he died on the cross. Glorification refers to the process whereby our Lord sheds his humanity and becomes fully divine. Thus it was the humanity that prayed, not a separate divine person, as he called on the love inside himself to triumph. This interpretation is further supported by the passage I quoted earlier:

Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works. (John 14:10)

The Father being something within Jesus is further supported by another earlier passage from John:

No one has taken it away from Me [his life], but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father. (John 10:18)

If Jesus lays down his own life on his won initiative than how can he also say he was commanded to do so by a separate entity. It is the Father, the divine love, within Jesus that drives him toward the Passion. We experience a similar duality when we say that we are ‘of two minds’, until that is, we make our decision. Then there is no longer the same duality; our consciousness is no longer as of two. Christ joins his humanity to his diety so they are united in purpose. His earthly doubt disapears and there is no more separation between heaven and earth. When his work was finished his humanity was glorified and made perfect,

John 17:1, Jesus said in prayer to Jehovah: "glorify your son, that your son may glorify you." If Jesus and Jehovah are the same god … Individually glorifying each other raises a red flag that these are two separate and distinct persons; otherwise, this glorifying of each other would make no logical sense.

See above.

At John 17:25, Jesus said to Jehovah: "Righteous Father…,I have come to know you…." Am I supposed to believe God was having a conversation with himself during which one part of God was telling the other part that God came to know himself?

Once again Jesus shared in our humanity. His authority over evil resulted from his facing and overcoming all the temptations we ourselves face. Like us he felt conflicted between the urges of the flesh and the love inside him.

At John 17:25, Jesus said to Jehovah: " you sent me forth…." …The rules of hierarchy dictate that the one being sent forth is inferior to the one doing the sending. Throughout the scriptures, Jesus is shown taking instructions from Jehovah. It is never the other way around. So what happened to co-equality within the fabricated Trinity "Godhead"?

Your error is making God into a finite being who is located in just in one place, and nowhere else. God fills heaven and earth. Thus he also fills the humanity of Jesus like the soul fills the body. Likewise, our Lord is in us when we receive him into them. When the Words talk about ascending and descending, it sounds as if he travels around from place to place. This is merely an appearance. With respect to the Son, it just means our Lord took on a visible form. It was not another person that sent him, he sent himself. That is the meaning of the following verses:

No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man. (John 3:13) and And Jesus cried out and said, “He who believes in Me, does not believe in Me but in Him who sent Me. He who sees Me sees the One who sent Me. (John 12:45)

[Minimalist]

I agree about the sea battles, Chuck.

Empire is a marked improvement in that regard.

[Anomalocaris]

Yeah, a good sea battle from the classic era would be a real treat.

If they could combine the Empire and Rome engines, and take advantage of increased computer power to do larger scale battles, and do a really good game covering 600 BC - 31 BC, with sea battles, I'd pay a lot of money for it.

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Another thing they should add is to let you define your own squadron maneuvers, and employ them in the middle of the battle, or give formation conditional orders that gets executed when some condition about nearby formations are met.

[Alter2Ego]

Jesus also prayed to the Father from the Cross. About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?"--which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" (Matt 27:46)

The paradox of praying to himself appears only when you ignore the fact that Jesus of Nazareth was God manifest in the flesh.

ALTER2EGO -to- CHAD WOOTERS:
The paradox is yours and yours alone. Your conclusions are erroneous, illogical, and directly contradict the scriptures. The Bible says God cannot die and God cannot be seen by humans.

"the one alone having immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom not one of men has seen or can see. To him be honor and might everlasting. Amen." (1 Timothy 6:16)

There are no exceptions to that, such as: "except when he appeared as Jesus." So don't waste your time presenting such an argument to me as I will reject it as unscriptural.

[Neo-Scholastic]

The paradox is yours and yours alone. Your conclusions are erroneous, illogical, and directly contradict the scriptures.

Gee, if you say so. And when you say scriptures you mean the one single lone verse (1 Tim. 6:16) that you offered.

..don't waste your time presenting such an argument to me as I will reject it as unscriptural.

C'mon. This is a conversation. Drich, GodsChild, and I have doctrinal differences. And each of us refers to the same text. The Word is complex and a single life isn't long enough to uncover all its riches. We compare ideas. Answer each others questions. If you're going to close your mind to inquiry, then you're no better than the militant atheists here (a vocal subset of this forum).

[Alter2Ego]

Thus for that brief time in history our Lord expressed himself through two natures: both visible (the image) and invisible (YHVH). In his flesh he shared an outward humanity, prone to pain, suffering, and despair, but inwardly he was divine which gave him the power to overcome. Those conflicting natures were resolved when he died on the cross. Glorification refers to the process whereby our Lord sheds his humanity and becomes fully divine. Thus it was the humanity that prayed, not a separate divine person, as he called on the love inside himself to triumph. This interpretation is further supported by the passage I quoted earlier:

ALTER2EGO -to- CHAD WOOTERS:
What am about to say to you is not meant disrespectfully. But I must be frank.

You are a perfect example of what happens when people are so desperate to hold onto false religious teachings that they are willing to revert to intellectual dishonesty, defy all logic, and present nonsensical philosophies. Nothing you've said in that entire monologue can be found anywhere in the Judeo-Christian Bible.

The idea that God died and resurrected himself is one of the idiocies I've heard from Trinitarians I've debated at several other websites. I usually try to reason with them for a little while, but I know from experience that it's a lost cause. Anyone willing to sacrifice their intellect to believe something as crazy and as impossible to explain as the Trinity is in a self-imposed intellectual prison.


And then some wonder why people don't want anything to do with organized religion. I stopped attending church for years after I got tired of hearing the type of things you are spouting here. And I was a mere child—a teenager—when I walked away from organized religion because of the nonsensical doctrines that were insulting my intelligence. I stayed on the outside for years until I was contacted by Jehovah's Witnesses who, thankfully, don't believe in the Trinity or hellfire, They showed me from the Bible that those teachings are in conflict with the scriptures. If it hadn't been for them, I don't know that I would have ever again returned to organized religion.


This will be my last exchange with you on this topic. It's clear that you have a love affair with the Trinity and you're not willing to be corrected by the scriptures. So I'm moving on.