Obama care

[Darth]

What article on somalia are you reading? And where are you getting your info about libertarians?

False? Not according to your own link on somalia =D, here we go

"Somalia was a nation with a highly oppressive government,"

From the article you linked:

Many Somalis had become disillusioned with life under military dictatorship.
The government became increasingly totalitarian, and resistance movements, encouraged by Ethiopia, sprang up across the country, eventually leading to the Somali Civil War.
During 1990, in the capital city of Mogadishu, the residents were prohibited from gathering publicly in groups greater than three or four.

From the UN human rights commission, in 1990 http://www.unhcr.org/refworld/country,,H...99c,0.html

For the past 20 years, Somali president Mohamed Siad Barre has presided over a one-party military dictatorship. His reign has been characterized by vicious discrimination against certain ethnic groups – currently the Isaaqs in northern Somalia – as well as political imprisonment, torture and summary executions, in an effort to suppress all dissent in Somalia...

...by driving Isaaq noncombatants from the country through such means as indiscriminate aerial bombardment, the widespread killings of civilians, the destruction of crops, cattle and food-storage facilities, the poisoning of wells, and the jailing of hundreds of political prisoners.

TRUE

"What law there is, a lot of it is sharia."

From the wikipedia article you linked

In 2006, the Islamic Courts Union (ICU), an Islamist organization, assumed control of much of the southern part of the country and promptly imposed Shari'a law...

As a truce, in March 2009, Somalia's coalition government announced that it would re-implement Shari'a as the nation's official judicial system.[121] However, conflict continued in the southern and central parts of the country....


Shari'a
Islamic shari'a has traditionally played a significant part in Somali society. In theory, it has served as the basis for all national legislation in every Somali constitution. In practice, however, it only applied to common civil cases such as marriage, divorce, inheritance and family matters. This changed after the start of the civil war, when a number of new shari'a courts began to spring up in many different cities and towns across the country. These new shari'a courts serve three functions; namely, to pass rulings in both criminal and civil cases, to organize a militia capable of arresting criminals, and to keep convicted prisoners incarcerated.[152]
The shari'a courts, though structured along simple lines, feature a conventional hierarchy of a chairman, vice-chairman and four judges. A police force that reports to the court enforces the judges' rulings, but also helps settle community disputes and apprehend suspected criminals. In addition, the courts manage detention centers where criminals are kept. An independent finance committee is also assigned the task of collecting and managing tax revenue levied on regional merchants by the local authorities.[152]
In March 2009, Somalia's newly established coalition government announced that it would implement shari'a as the nation's official judicial system.

TRUE (and it's insane yes)

"most of the tax dollars was [sic] spent on 'defence'."
Admittedly the wikipedia article doesn't seem to provide % expenditures on military during the barre regime

Now, the ME/CGE ratio is explained as

the percentage of central government expenditures spent on defence

on page 25
Somalia breakdown is on page 80

The US Arms Control and Disarmament Agency's world military expenditures and arms transfers 1991-1992 report
http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/185648.pdf

So in the last year that they have info for (1986) it was at 30%, not counting 'policing'. Admittedly, 30% is not 'most', but it's a shit tonne, especially for a country that can't (won't) feed its people. Keep in mind it was the military who ran the place as well. AND it was spent not on defence, but on killing and oppressing it's own people, ruining it's own economy (burning crops, killing people...). See the above part on oppressive government. I'm going to take a wild guess here but in the lead up to, and during the start of the civil war the amount probably increased rather than decreased, though there is no data as we now know. Im not sure if that figure takes the military aid given to somalia into consideration either.

TECHNICALLY FALSE/UNVERIFIABLE, 30% and UNKNOWN% in the lead up and during the civil war VS a figure greater than 50%.

"Then civil war, and essentially NO government."
So the thing that precedes the civil war was an oppressive government, which we've already stablished, then civil war, the point that can be disputed in my thinking is 'essentially NO government'.

from the wikipedia article you linked

Following a meeting of the Somali National Movement and northern clans' elders, the northern former British portion of the country declared its independence as Somaliland in May 1991. Although de facto independent and relatively stable compared to the tumultuous south, it has not been recognized by any foreign government.

This led to efforts to remove Barre who still claimed to be the legitimate president of Somalia. He and his armed supporters remained in the south of the country until mid 1992, causing further escalation in violence, especially in the Gedo, Bay, Bakool, Lower Shabelle, Lower Juba, and Middle Juba regions. The armed conflict within the USC devastated the Mogadishu area.

The resulting famine (about 300,000 dead) caused the United Nations Security Council in 1992 to authorise the limited peacekeeping operation United Nations Operation in Somalia I (UNOSOM I).[85] UNOSOM's use of force was limited to self-defense and, although originally welcomed by both sides,[86] it was soon disregarded by the warring factions.

Fighting escalated until 19 American troops and more than 1,000 civilians and militia were killed in a raid in Mogadishu during October 1993.[87][88] The UN withdrew Operation United Shield in 3 March 1995, having suffered significant casualties, and with the rule of government still not restored. In August 1996, Aidid was killed in Mogadishu.

A consequence of the collapse of governmental authority that accompanied the civil war has been the emergence of a significant problem with piracy in the waters off of the coast of Somalia.[97][98] Piracy arose as a response by local fishermen from littoral towns such as Eyl, Kismayo and Harardhere to illegal fishing by foreign trawlers.[99][100][101] An upsurge in piracy in the Gulf of Aden and the Indian Ocean has also been attributed to the effects of the 26 December 2004 tsunami that devastated local fishing fleets and washed ashore containers filled with toxic waste that had been dumped by European fishing vessels.[101][102]

Ima say TRUE, but then, I'm hardly an unbiased judge. I can agree that that statement is iffy, 'essentially no central government', 'lots of governments', 'lots of warring factions', 'essentially no government in parts of the country' would probably have been a better choice of words.

Shall we continue? This is taking a while (didn't find military expenditures as a percentage of government expenditures easy to find), and I know I'm right on the libertarian stuff (Just to be sure, we're talking about libertarianism as it's known in the U.S, close to classical liberalism yeah?)

[Darth]

One amendment, I read the UN acronym too quickly and without enough care and made an assumption, that's actually the refugee agency, my bad. Im happy to continue (using your own links where possible ) after we're sure we're on the same page in terms of what libertarianism we are talking about (no point arguing past each other, using different terms...).

[Justtristo]

As I see it Obama's attempt to reform the health care system in the United States is rather conservative and timid. It is ironically the same sort of reform that Mitt Romney introduced when he was Governor of Masschussets.

For instance if I were President Obama I would forbid health insurance compaines from making a profit on basic health insurance. Although I would also eliminate the need for employers to contribute to the health expenses of their employees and directly subside the health insurance costs of those who can't afford health insurance.

So I am simply amazed by the response by some in the United States to this. It is little wonder why the United States is increasingly considered the laughing stock of the Western World. Indeed when I despair over how our political environment is like in Australia now, I can take comfort it is nowhere near as bad as that of the United States.

To give an example of this insanity I perceve in US politics, in Australia and other Western Nations my political views put me firmly in the middle, if not on the centre-right. However in the USA these same views would put me on the extreme left.

[DeistPaladin]

So I am simply amazed by the response by some in the United States to this. It is little wonder why the United States is increasingly considered the laughing stock of the Western World. Indeed when I despair over how our political environment is like in Australia now, I can take comfort it is nowhere near as bad as that of the United States.

This is a point I'm self-conscious about as well. If during the 90s you'd told me what would be happening in America in the following decade, I wouldn't have believed you. A president who lied us into a war and rolled back our constitution should have been impeached so fast his butt should have left smoking skid marks through the rose garden. 9/11 or no, it was astounding to me that his behavior was tolerated, never mind re-elected.

Our political discourse is ever sliding to the right wing. Now W. Bush seems like a centrist in comparison to the current crop of GOP leaders. The Democrats, the ones who are supposed to be the opposing party, are always chasing after them, throwing their liberal base under the bus (except when they want us to volunteer for them and donate to their campaigns) and running to the right, chasing after that elusive "center". Obama, for all the shrill cries from the right about his being a "socialist", is to the right of Reagan on many issues.

Now, even Medicare and Social Security, once considered "untouchable, third rails" in American politics, are suddenly "on the table". Our bloated Cold-War defense budget is never even considered for cuts.

Someone once said when fascism comes to America, it will be carrying a Bible and draped in our flag. This was certainly true.

The tri-corner hat was a surprise.

To give an example of this insanity I perceve in US politics, in Australia and other Western Nations my political views put me firmly in the middle, if not on the centre-right. However in the USA these same views would put me on the extreme left.

Tell me about it. I was surprised to take two different political tests and find myself an economic moderate, social liberal. Around here, in "red state" Kentucky, I feel like I'm an extreme leftist.

[The Grand Nudger]

Meh, try Lexington, you'd fit right in.

[cratehorus]

What article on somalia are you reading? And where are you getting your info about libertarians?

Somalia has no government that is why it's compared to "libertarianism" which (in america) is basically whatever RP says it is. People bury nuclear waste illegally in Somalia :

“…As soon as the government was gone, mysterious European ships started appearing off the coast of Somalia, dumping vast barrels into the ocean. The coastal population began to sicken. At first they suffered strange rashes, nausea and malformed babies. Then, after the 2005 tsunami, hundreds of the dumped and leaking barrels washed up on shore. People began to suffer from radiation sickness, and more than 300 died.

Ahmedou Ould-Abdallah, the UN envoy to Somalia, tells me: ‘Somebody is dumping nuclear material here. There is also lead, and heavy metals such as cadmium and mercury – you name it.’ Much of it can be traced back to European hospitals and factories, who seem to be passing it on to the Italian mafia to ‘dispose’ of cheaply.

http://ecolocalizer.com/2011/03/27/more-...ias-coast/

Corporations can already do whatever the fuck they want in somalia, so what the fuck are you talking about? what is stopping them? couldn't be a lack of government right???

If you want to talk about Somalia, or how libertarianism is different from just having zero government... start a different thread. but if corporations could solve any and, all problems, somalia would be a utopian paradise........and would have the best healthcare system in the world

[Darth]

I didn't start talking about somalia, dp mentioned it, I said why Somalia was an unfair comparison in a few lines, you separated my post into many segments and wrote false at nearly every opportunity (earning many kudo's), I set the record straight using your own link where possible (for the lulz).

Would starting another thread discussing the differences between libertarianism (where corporations are most definitely not free to do whatever they feel like) and other forms of government be appropriate? Perhaps, but I disagree. I personally think libertarianism has a lot to offer on the topic of healthcare and in this thread (though you will of course disagree), but there are clearly gross misunderstandings about libertarianism (and Somalia incidentally) in this thread which is going to hinder any attempt at a meaningful discussion.

If you want to talk about Somalia, or how libertarianism is different from just having zero government... start a different thread. but if corporations could solve any and, all problems, somalia would be a utopian paradise........and would have the best healthcare system in the world

(bolding mine)

You're telling me to start a new thread, and then you still go on about Somalia and corporations being able to do what they want over there? huh? And you then link Somalia back to healthcare... I think I'll stay here thanks =D

Nuclear waste dumping? Largely irrelevant, but you chose a very interesting article to quote >8 ). Your quote says they are european ships, with the waste originating from european hospitals and factories? Sounds like the european governments are dropping the ball then doesn't it, letting the people leave with toxic waste and return with no/forged recipes? Tsk tsk. Sounds like european hospitals are indirectly killing people in somalia. Yes, it would appear from that article that corporations are able to do pretty much whatever they want over there including dumping nuclear waste wherever they please, THAT IS NOT WHAT LIBERTARIANS WANT, THAT IS NOT THE SYSTEM THAT LIBERTARIANS ARE PROPOSING! If you think that libertarians are proposing a form of government that would tolerate, or be powerless to stop, the dumping of nuclear waste, and the murder of civilians, then I just don't know what to say.

Justtristo, you say that you would have preferred that Obama force all existing health insurance companies to not make a profit on basic healthcare (only on the luxury staff?). Then they'll either not bother to provide it, or not bother working nearly as hard on ways to improve the basic package/make it cheaper.

Absolutely DP, your military budget is most definitely due a cut imo, we're in agreement on that, that and the impeachment/s (I will note however that Obama has continued with many of those god-awful Bush policies). 'Carrying a cross' I thought the quote went.

[A Theist]

I have read that if somone is making $29.000 or less Obama care is free, I have also read if a salary is $10,000 Obama care will cost about $800.00 a year, Which is alot for a person making so little, I have also read no one knows the cost yet because the states will decide what a person owes. Does anyone here know?

Manowar

White House Solicitor General, Donald Verrilli argued for Obamacare before the U.S. Supreme Court, "Not only is it fair to read this as an exercise to the tax power, but this court has got an obligation to construe it as an exercise of the tax power if it can be upheld on that basis."....

The Congressional Budget Office (CBO) estimates that the Obamacare Tax will cost the American taxpayers $1.76 trillion over the next ten years.
By 2016 the CBO also projects that there will be 4 million people who will pay the mandate penalty TAX.

"Oversimplifying a bit, for most people the tax in 2016 will be $750 per adult and $375 per kid."....see link below

. 75% of those will earn less than $120,000 per year.
Additionally, people who are living here illegally will be exempt from the Obamacare tax but they'll get free Obama stuff at our expense....

http://washingtonexaminer.com/article/1175831
http://keithhennessey.com/2012/06/28/uninsured-tax/

[NoraBrimstone]

I honestly don't see what people's problem is. It's one of the only first-world countries without social healthcare. I find it appalling that people can actually oppose it. it's just so so greedy. I live in the UK, where people moan about the NHS all the time, but moaning is just a popular hobby in Britain. Most of us owe our lives and/or the lives of people we love and care about to the NHS.

Now, I choose to pay for private health insurance now I can afford it, but I am still perfectly happy to contribute to the NHS because people NEED that money to stay alive and healthy. There is just no excuse for being so greedy that you'd rather see other people die than be parted with a little bit of money that you probably wouldn't even miss. I bet these people don't give to charities either.

[DeistPaladin]

Oh, some-guy-with-a-blog says so. Well then...

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Oh, and A-Theist, welcome back!

I think we had a debate scheduled, didn't we? (*evil grin, cracks knuckles*)