Prayer?

[The Grand Nudger]

Must have been gods will that a celestial war left a bunch of fucking demons down here, real nice guy you got there, that god fella.

[Drich]

[quote='Thor' pid='323113' dateline='1344954079']


So which is it? Utopia and free will can't coexist or they can? Because you're making no sense here.

Sin is anything not in the expressed will of God.

Free will is the ablity to be outside of God's expressed will.

In Heaven there is no sin, Their is only God's will.

So.... there is no free will in heaven. Is that what you're saying?

Their is No will out side of God's will in Heaven. So no.

[Skepsis]

The problem is you are having to introduce a red herring to make this arguement fit what I have said in this thread. Which I will address in your 'explaination' of God's plan.

It is hardly a red herring if it was introduced through discussion of God's nature and his "plan". It questions the very ability of that God to have a plan which includes choice at all, another issue in contention.
Have I tried to draw attention away from the issue? No, I have simply phrased it in a neater argument.

Which is why God's Righteous Judgements are not considered to be 'justic' For He does not levy a Judgement on incomplete information. therefore a generally accepted 'fairness' is not required.

So his "justice" isn't really just at all, and you get away with it by saying "well, God must know what we don't, and is thus justified". No, justice is justice, and even if God's justice is supreme it cannot cross the line into what I can only think to call perfect injustice, or an exact violation of the meaning of the term.

Did you just not say God's Judgements sickened you? So that would mean not all would find Heaven to their liking. What if you wnet to Heaven and found you had to serve as a Slave for eternity? would you rather be a Slave to God or be seperated from Him?

Slave.
I'd rather be a slave than burn.

Another Red Herring. I said "Belief' was not the deciding factor." I did not say christian morality was.

As per usual you missed the point entirely. I was saying that, if you don't have to believe to go to heaven, then you must be saying we are immoral.
Still, it seems like you believe belief is the deciding factor:
Can I get to heaven without believing that God exists? If not, then belief is the deciding factor.

Eitherway know both Christian and Atheist morality fall far short of earning on a spot in Heaven via their deeds. for no matter what version of 'morality' you adopt it is a personal version of the righteousness we have been called to with the sin we are willing to incoperate (live with) set into that standard. which makes our 'morality' (which ever version) Meaningless before God.

Wow, so you do see belief as the deciding factor after all. You see belief as the deciding factor, yet have no proof of God to offer to the skeptic and feel justified "helping" the spiritually needy in an atheist forum?

Belief is the catalist for this whole process.

So, yes.

This next bit is the Red Herring I mentioned in the beginning of this post:

Red herrings are purposeful diversion set to avoid the topic. I feel more than justified questioning the nature of your God in reference to his "plan".

what is the nature of God as you understand it? Do you have supporting scripture to back these assertions? If not, how can you have so much intimate knoweledge of a God you say does not exist and then know Him better than one who has spent 20 or so years studying Him from the bible?

I forgot the cardinal rule of religion- everyone's God/god/g-d/gods is/are different. Sorry.
Tell me, does God know my whole life and how it will play out?
Did he know the details of everything in creation before he created it?
Depending on those answers, I can proceed with the argument.

This straw man all kinda falls apart when your forced to work with only the stated nature of God, as per the bible.

You don't understand fallacies at all. Don't accuse people of committing them when you don't know what they are in the first place.
I was working with information from most other Christians I have come into contact with, not your personal interpretations. Remember, cherry-picking is a staple if you want to keep your faith.

Ok I see now what you are saying. My arguement says we are only garanteed one choice. not that we are limited to one choice.

You didn't really answer my question. Can we make choices with everything in our lives, or not? If it is somewhere in between, then you will have to justify it.

Again how do you know your prayers have not been answered?

I am an atheist on a track for hellfire. lol.

you can only say for certain that your prayers have not been answered the way you thought they should be answered.

If I no longer have the ability to become a Christian (unless proper evidence comes up) then I'd say they weren't answered at all. Why? because that was the only point in my life that I could have been saved from my doubts.

Do you truly not see they are linked?

I know it was long, but read my post. I explained that they were linked but that unanswered prayer has nothing to do with why I don't believe in a God.

You said you did not goto Church, you did not read the bible, yet you felt like you knew God well enough to make wishes, at an age when God is perceived to be a great wizard anyway, and based on what happened here you have changed the rest of your life... Respectfully, in your estimation how is this not a 'half assed' attempt?

When asking a being with infinite time on his hands and the power to do anything it is hard to be half-assed. To be honest, I think the month I spend pleading with God was more of a waste of time than anything.

In the passage of Luke 11 that i posted it says we are to Ask, Seek and Knock for the Holy Spirit. For He will provide the 'proof' we all seeks (and many other things that will sustain belief as well.) We ask in prayer (you did ask, sort of if you are willing to take a very liberal interpertation of prayer) You did not seek, for we seek in the bible, in Church, and in discussions like this. and you did not knock. Which has one asking and seeking till He gets what He wants. One could potentially spend a life time knocking, but it is usally limited to the hardness of one heart. (willingness to let their sins of choice go)

Alright, this is the crux of the matter. Only those that really, really want to believe would spend their life begging a god to answer their prayers. This means that they would likely only last a couple months before something made them believe for some reason or another that directly correlate with their want to believe.
You said you prayed for an answer from all Gods. Why the hell was that "seeking" while my prayer to all Gods was not? I did use the bible to guide my prayers, asking God to provide personal revelation. That is "seeking". I did both of the important parts but left out the part that only those dedicated to believing anyway would follow.
Essentially you are offering a spiced-up version of self indoctrination.

again How do you KNOW this is not what is happening now?

I am an antitheist. I scorn religion for it's very existence, but patiently wait for it to pass away like all other myth... with gentle urging.

Why do you assume God had to give you want you wanted in the way you were asking? God knows you better than that. I was a youth minister for a while and I know better than to grant a wish to a 13 year old without restrictions or modifications. Especially a wish dealing with the knoweledge or wisdom of God. If you asked God to answer a wish that a wizard would grant, then you at 13 are establishing God as a wizard in your minds eye.

Essentially God is a wizard... but that isn't the point. If you are saying that he is so impotent that he cannot exert himself in a way that cannot be chalked up to those outside your bubble to confirmation bias?

For what would happen to you and your faith when you found out that God was not the wizard who 'prooved' Himself to you when you were 13?

Couldn't be worse than making me an antitheist, I suppose.

would you have God lie to you? Or is the God of the universe creator of all things bound bound to change His nature to fit your finite understanding of who He is supposed to be?

All you have to offer is clever ways to keep yourself from exclaiming "this is bullshit" when praying or thinking about God. God doesn't answer your prayers in any way that impacts reality? Nah, he is just doing whats best. Prayed for your friend to win that race and she fell down the hill and in an unbelievable turn of bad luck she lost her life's passion to broken leg bones? He's... doing something there, surely.
Or rather, as the sane person would see it, he isn't doing shit.
Sorry, it's just you and your belief.

again Now what if in order for you to change your understanding of God you had to learn to question and resolve issues that you could not get past, while doing what you would have done if God answered your prayer the way you wanted it answered?

That won't happen anytime soon, unless someone comes up with a brilliant and compelling evidence for the existence of God.

If God was looking to change your understanding of Him by forcing you to seek and ask,(BTW don't look now but this is exactly what you are doing) then endowing you with a good measure of skeptisim would be an answer to your orginal prayer.

There he goes, removing free will again. Man, I wish God would butt out of my business and quit forcing me to do things. Too bad that isn't a viable excuse in court.

The only question now is, what will you do with this answered prayer? Will you seek God? Or will you seek a philosphy that allows you to further seperate yourself from Him?

You mean skepticism. Yes, I will seek to further myself from any delusion where belief is founded without evidence to back it up, just like any sane person should.

Two observations. 1) you haven't lived your life yet, so you do not know what you will do. 2) you do not know God did not answer your prayer.

Two observations:
1) Yes I have, I was talking about the life I have already lived. I do not currently base my life on an unanswered prayer and I never will.
2) If I die an antitheist can I know for sure then? If I die tomorrow in an accident, can I be sure?
Well, no... because after I die, I'm dead. But you see the point.

He already has, you just have to accept this salvation.

Accepting it entails believing something for which there is no evidence in a system that is completely illogical. Accepting repentance for something that he had planned from the start? Sorry, I don't think so.

So to turn you over to the sin you are already commiting is nothing that hasn't already happened. the only difference is how you feel about sin and how you feel about God. Your heart now reflects your actions.

I used that rhetoric primarily for effect.

It's not just about asking questions it about living them and the answers that follow.

I agree.

The only difference I see is the order in which you have decided to walk this portion of the path and the amount of time you will spend here.

So you were a skeptic? What made you accept something that is completely unevidenced? Don't give me some crap about how you were saved when it was really only you convincing yourself that Xtainity is right, because that is the best you have had to offer here.

11 Faith is what makes real the things we hope for. It is proof of what we cannot see. 2 God was pleased with the people who lived a long time ago because they had faith like this.

If this is the easy to read version, I'd say I'm still quite on target.
Wishful thinking makes real what we hope for, per the individual. It isn't, however, proof of anything.[/quote]

[Thor]

[quote='Thor' pid='323209' dateline='1344969989']


So.... there is no free will in heaven. Is that what you're saying?

Their is No will out side of God's will in Heaven. So no.

So someone in heaven has no free will? They couldn't sin if they wanted to? Someone in heaven can't possibly utter the phrase "Goddammit!"? What would happen if they tried? Would their head explode?

[Drich]

[quote='Thor' pid='323209' dateline='1344969989']


So.... there is no free will in heaven. Is that what you're saying?

Their is No will out side of God's will in Heaven. So no.

So someone in heaven has no free will? They couldn't sin if they wanted to? Someone in heaven can't possibly utter the phrase "Goddammit!"? What would happen if they tried? Would their head explode?

In revelations we are told their will be 1000 year reign of Christ durning that time Satan (and all he repersents/temptation and so on) will be locked away in Hell.

I take this to mean there will be 1000 year trial period for all of those who think they found a loop hole into heaven (along with everyone else) where we will get a picture of what it is like to live under God's will (No sin) for a while. Durning that reign of Christ I do not think sin will be possiable. At the end of this 1000 year period Satan will be released one last time to rally against God. Meaning Sin will be reintroduced and those who want to be outside of God's expressed will, will have the oppertunity to do so at that time. Further seperating the wheat from the chaff.. Those who truly want to be with God from those who want what God can offer, but do not wish to serve God with all that they are.

[Jackalope]

Nice story, bro.

[Thor]

In revelations we are told their will be 1000 year reign of Christ durning that time Satan (and all he repersents/temptation and so on) will be locked away in Hell.

In "Goldilocks and the Three Bears" we are told that a young girl came upon the home of three bears and she helped herself to their porridge and beds. And this story is just as believable as yours.

I take this to mean there will be 1000 year trial period for all of those who think they found a loop hole into heaven (along with everyone else) where we will get a picture of what it is like to live under God's will (No sin) for a while.

A trial period? For 1,000 years? Now you're just pulling crap out of thin air.

Durning that reign of Christ I do not think sin will be possiable.

How could it not be possible to sin? Like I said, does this mean you can't utter the phrase "GODDAMMIT!" in heaven?

At the end of this 1000 year period Satan will be released one last time to rally against God.

Release the hounds!

Meaning Sin will be reintroduced and those who want to be outside of God's expressed will, will have the oppertunity to do so at that time. Further seperating the wheat from the chaff.. Those who truly want to be with God from those who want what God can offer, but do not wish to serve God with all that they are.

And your evidence to support ANY of this hooey is....?

[Drich]

In "Goldilocks and the Three Bears" we are told that a young girl came upon the home of three bears and she helped herself to their porridge and beds. And this story is just as believable as yours.

I take this to mean there will be 1000 year trial period for all of those who think they found a loop hole into heaven (along with everyone else) where we will get a picture of what it is like to live under God's will (No sin) for a while.

A trial period? For 1,000 years? Now you're just pulling crap out of thin air.

Durning that reign of Christ I do not think sin will be possiable.

How could it not be possible to sin? Like I said, does this mean you can't utter the phrase "GODDAMMIT!" in heaven?

At the end of this 1000 year period Satan will be released one last time to rally against God.

Release the hounds!

Meaning Sin will be reintroduced and those who want to be outside of God's expressed will, will have the oppertunity to do so at that time. Further seperating the wheat from the chaff.. Those who truly want to be with God from those who want what God can offer, but do not wish to serve God with all that they are.

And your evidence to support ANY of this hooey is....?

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?sea...rsion=NKJV

Read the chapter from start to finish.

---

I see very few questions to answer. The majority of what you have written is a matter of personal conjecture and faith. I am not here to argue what you personally believe.

I will answer what few questions that were asked that pertained to the bible/God.

Tell me, does God know my whole life and how it will play out?

Did he know the details of everything in creation before he created it?
Depending on those answers, I can proceed with the argument.

It is suggested in the arguements that surround the 'Omni-aspects' of God, but the problem with that arguement is that the 'Omni-aspects of God' are not specifically mentioned in the bible. So the truth. I don't know, but I'd like to think so.

You didn't really answer my question. Can we make choices with everything in our lives, or not?

No. Not all choice we are presented with are ours to make. I chose to marry my wife in a small cermony with just our imediate family present. She chose to invite 250 other people, and moved the wedding to a church downtown. What you call choice is an illusion, for we are slaves to circumstance. (we can not 'choose to be outside of our circumstances.) However the Choice God has promised is not an illusion for He has made way to provide it to all of us. It pertains to where we will spend eternity. This is the only true choice we have been promised.

I am an atheist on a track for hellfire. lol.

Without the benfit of perspective you do not know what track you are on.

I explained that they were linked but that unanswered prayer has nothing to do with why I don't believe in a God.

So if God personally did a jig for you and answered all of the prayers you prayed in the way you prayed you still wounldn't believe in God?

Alright, this is the crux of the matter. Only those that really, really want to believe would spend their life begging a god to answer their prayers.

Luke 11 has nothing to do with begging God to answer prayers.

This means that they would likely only last a couple months before something made them believe for some reason or another that directly correlate with their want to believe.

That is what seeking in the bible is about. If one is grounded in scripture then 'events' have to follow a very strict set of requirements before they can even be considered to be an 'act of God.'
The oppsite of what you think is true here.

You said you prayed for an answer from all Gods.

My mother was buddhist, so it was more than prayer I searched for many things that did not include God.

Why the hell was that "seeking" while my prayer to all Gods was not?

I found the same thing you did when I sought other 'gods.'

I did use the bible to guide my prayers, asking God to provide personal revelation. That is "seeking".

There is one prayer we are told to pray. there is one God we must seek. We are told we must Humble ourselves before God. This means we must do things 'His way.' We must Seek His way. Humble yourself before God and HE will lift you up. Not put a month time line on your effort and expect God to meet you half way. If you do not know how to be humble then Ask God to show you Humility.

I did both of the important parts but left out the part that only those dedicated to believing anyway would follow.
Essentially you are offering a spiced-up version of self indoctrination.

God the Son makes a promise in Luke 11. If you do these three things Ask Seek and Knock (knocking being the biggest part of the parable and subsequently the only thing your heart will not allow) He will provide what you need to establish and maintain the faith needed for a relationship with Him.

Essentially God is a wizard... but that isn't the point.

Actually it is. God denied you petition to paint Him as a wizard for your whole life as a believer and yet you did so anyway. Now imagine how strong your 'faith' would be if He positivly answered your 'wizard' prayers.

If you are saying that he is so impotent that he cannot exert himself in a way that cannot be chalked up to those outside your bubble to confirmation bias?

Why would He want to? Don't you understand if there was absolute undenyable confirmation to the existance of God the one choice you have goes away? It's like yoou said "I'd rather be a Slave than burn." Now as a matter of self perservation you are forcing yourself into eternal slavery.

Couldn't be worse than making me an antitheist, I suppose.

Atheism is a tempering process. it will either make the faith you will have stronger, or it will make your heart harder. It's a tool like any other how it is used depends on you.

So you were a skeptic?

Yes

What made you accept something that is completely unevidenced?

I made and honest effort to the promise God make in Luke 11 and He full filled that promise. He provided evidence for me.

[Epimethean]

"I see very few questions to answer. The majority of what you have written is a matter of personal conjecture and faith. I am not here to argue what you personally believe."

How fucking sweet (and idiotic) of you. EVERYTHING you argue is based on your personal conjecture and faith, as are your reasons to pray. You are here to argue what you personally believe or you would get a clue and disappear like so many drippy theists have before you. You're so brainwashed that you don't even realize the depth of your hypocrisy. Your blindness to reason and selectivity in response speak volumes and show your lack of depth.

[Oldandeasilyconfused]

Must have been gods will that a celestial war left a bunch of fucking demons down here, real nice guy you got there, that god fella.

Ya want a celestial war,read The Mahabharata and the Rig Veda. There are, flying vehicles and what seem to be atomic weapons.



Not just Christians who are credulous:

Myth of Ancient Nuclear War
Was the ancient indian war of mahabharatha a nuclear war?? Did ancient indians use weapons if mass destruction (WMD) while in the west humans were still in their primitive settlements?

Oppenheimer
The architect of modern atomic bomb who was in charge of the manhattan project was asked by a student after the manhattan explosion, “How do you feel after having exploded the first atomic bomb on earth”. Oppenheimer’s reply for the question was , “not first atomic bomb, but first atomic bomb in modern times”. He strongly believed that nukes were used in ancient india. what made oppenheimer believe that it was a nuclear war was the accurate descriptions of the weapons used in the mahabharatha war in the epic which match with that of modern nuclear weapons. Video

Mohenjadaro and Harappa
Scientists Davneport and Vincenti put forward a theory saying the ruins were of a nuclear blast as they found big stratums of clay and green glass. High temperature melted clay and sand and they hardened immediately afterwards. Similar stratums of green glass can also found in Nevada deserts after every nuclear explosion.

Radio Active Ash
A layer of radioactive ash was found in Rajasthan, India. It covered a three-square mile area, ten miles west of Jodhpur. The research occurred after a very high rate of birth defects and cancer was discovered in the area. The levels of radiation registered so high on investigators’ gauges that the Indian government cordoned off the region. Scientists then apparently unearthed an ancient city where they found evidence of an atomic blast dating back thousands of years: from 8,000 to 12,000 years.

The blast was said to have destroyed most of the buildings and probably a half-million people.
Archeologist Francis Taylor stated that etchings in some nearby temples he translated suggested that they prayed to be spared from the great light that was coming to lay ruin to the city.
Crater Near Bombay
Another curious sign of an ancient nuclear war in India is a giant crater near Bombay. The nearly circular 2,154-metre-diameter Lonar crater (left image), located 400 kilometers northeast of Bombay and aged at less than 50,000 years old, could be related to nuclear warfare of antiquity. No trace of any meteoric material, etc., has been found at the site or in the vicinity, and this is the world’s only known “impact” crater in basalt.

http://controversialhistory.blogspot.com...C2ey6P_kgc

The Rig Veda, the oldest document of the human race includes references to the following modes of transportation: Jalayan – a vehicle designed to operate in air and water (Rig Veda 6.58.3); Kaara- a vehicle that operates on ground and in water. (Rig Veda 9.14.1); Tritala- a vehicle consisting of three stories. (Rig Veda 3.14.1); Trichakra Ratha – a three-wheeled vehicle designed to operate in the air. (Rig Veda 4.36.1); Vaayu Ratha- a gas or wind-powered chariot. (Rig Veda 5.41.6); Vidyut Ratha- a vehicle that operates on power. (Rig Veda 3.14.1).

http://scienceinvedas.wordpress.com/2006...-rig-veda/