(August 13, 2012 at 4:30 pm)Drich Wrote: The plan was to provide Choice. Or to provide an oppertunity to choose. the plan wasn't to force everyone to Choose Heaven.
You're not seeing my point. A God like yours that created the universe knowing all there was to ever know about his creation necessarily created a deterministic universe. In such a universe, choice is illusory and only seems real to the chooser. We cannot choose heaven nor hell, and why you contest this while confirming that we have no choice in all our other endeavors goes right over my head. You have to provide some sort of evidence in order to make this claim, and it has to satisfy the dilemma of a precognizant creator God's inability to create a world with choice.
Quote:This judgement is always based on incomplete information.
You think? I'd say that most times justice is administered it is based on viable evidence. Unless you are suggesting that all judicial systems in the world are unjust and flawed...?
Quote: God's Judgement is complete and complies with a absolute righteous standard. In other words God's judgement may not be fair to everyone.
So it's command theory: justice version. I have always been disgusted by the notion that a God can dictate the most morally corrupt action as righteous and application to justice is no better.
Quote:What if one chooses to be eternally seperated from God? Is God to drag them kicking and screaming into Heaven?
If the alternative is to burn in hellfire?
Quote:Belief in god is not the deciding factor of Heaven or Hell.
I find this rather insulting then. You are here to save the atheists from hell or "Spiritual Torment", yet belief isn't the deciding factor. Are you insinuating that atheists are intrinsically immoral? Or amoral?
Quote:For we are told even the Demons believe." And yet they are not welcome into Heaven. Love (as God outlines it) is what makes us acceptiable for God to accept our belief.
So belief is necessary anyway?
What you should have wrote is
"belief isn't the deciding factor...*"
*= Lol it really is Jk.
Quote:Choice only requires one alternitive to the situation you are facing.
And in your God's plan there isn't an alternative.
Quote:you have a choice you do not have an abundance of choice.
Or any at all.
Quote:Again "the Master plan" was to give you the oppertunity to Choose, not that you make a specific choice.
I understand that. I understood since the first time you said it. I get it already.
Do you understand my objection?
That a "master" plan that determines all universal attributes pre-creation is a deterministic one, and thus disallows choice in any form?
Or that it is special pleading when you don't evidence why people are exempt from determinism when it comes to choice between heaven and hell?
How about your God's injustice of not evidencing himself in any significant way and then making the criterion to avoid eternal hell-fire belief?
Ring a bell?
Quote:define 'the plan' as you understand it.
Unless it has changed since Adam and Eve, then the plan remains that we are left no alternative than to sin. Then, he planned odd, ritualistic vicarious redemption through a blood sacrifice of his own son that wasn't really a sacrifice because he went to heaven in the end anyway, though for some reason he didn't plan the actions of every human being.
But by the nature of God he must have planned how every single event that would ever occur would play out and what our choices would be given the universe he created, seeing as how he knew the consequence for the creation of any given universe before he created it. Therefore, he also had to know, before he created anything, what everyone would do every second of their lives given and choice they might be given.
I can hardly think of anything more analogous to programming than that scenario.
Quote:Because No other Choices are given! There are no other options.
Answer me this, according to your mythology: Am I free to choose my breakfast? You said earlier that one of the only choices we have is to sin or not to sin, and I took that to mean that you believed there to be little choice at all, which is why I accused you of special pleading.
Quote:So you are making a desision that will echo through out eternity for the half hearted effort you put into makeing a desision when you were 13. (Not raging here I just want you to take an honest look.) did you have a girlfriend when you were 13? Do you have one now? If we made all of our life's desisions based on the half hearted efforts we made when we were 13 year old then we'd all die from infections we got from over Masterbation.
Like I said, I looked at it as something I would be looking for long. The fact that my prayers weren't answered at any age would have led me to question my skepticism that I now lead my life based on. Skepticism killed religion for me, not unanswered prayer. Still, why was my attempt half assed, according to you? I did all I felt I could for quite a while, and if God really knew me he knows what I needed to justify me in my faith. Why didn't he give me that? Just a "mystery of God"?
Quote:If your social life has improved in the last 5 years, Then how is it a good idea to base not only your whole life, but your eternal one as well, on the efforts you put fourth to know God when you were 13?
I don't base my entire life on unanswered prayers. To atheists, God is nothing to sweat over, so when you say "base your eternal life" on an unconscious decision I made, it feels oddly surreal. When I believed, the biggest obstacle I had to overcome was fear. Fear of being disowned, fear of hell, fear of losing myself to sin. I don't fear those anymore, thanks to a healthy skepticism and the support of my parents. If I didn't have those, I might not have gotten through deconversion as easily. In the end, I am not "basing my life" on anything. I simply gave up my childish delusion for a healthier reality-based, truth seeking skepticism.
Quote:how could you possiably know what happened?
You haven't lived long enough yet.
Are you calling me naive or unwise due to my age? That's laughable, especially coming from someone who genuinely feels atheists are in danger of being sent to hell by a loving God.
Quote:The only think you proved is that God has not conceeded to the time line you have set before Him.
My timeline is insurmountably small compared to his. I might live to be 80, if I am lucky. he'll live forever, and exists everywhere at all times. Nothing is stopping him from saving me. Nothing. Yet, he sat at the sidelines and watched as I threw my life to sin (according to your fairy tale).
Quote:I will be 37 in a few days and I am just now starting to see How God answered prayers I made when I was 18.
The more time you spend indoctrinating and deluding yourself, the more confirmation bias you have in hindsight? Really?
We have a psychological breakthrough here, people!
Quote:So to Say God did not answer a prayer in your time frame... Know that He seldom does.
Or never does, because he is a myth that you in your 38 years in this world can't discount while I in my mere 18 years have seen through...
Quote:how do you know this is not an answer to your prayer in of itself?
You wanted 'proof' of God what if proof could only be provided if first you had to absolve questions you could not ask because of some misunderstood 'respect' you gave the church that was not needed? What if your journey into Atheism was the only way you could resolve these issues, and accept the proof God would provide?
I have always yielded to my skepticism, asking the questions I felt needed to be answered regardless of discipline. In my younger years (lol) I was more rebellious and would ask controversial questions all the time.
Still, what if you were right? Why didn't god give me the answers so I could follow your path or one like it?
Quote:God yeild results, not the journeys we want to take.
If God yields results in this way, then so do I. Pray to me, because as long as I am revered enough I can get away with killing your wife because I was "teaching you to cope with depression".
No, fuck that. What happens in your life is led by you, and no invisible sky daddy will take credit for actions I take while avoiding blame for the malnourished and distraught of the world.
Quote:Have you considered it was not correct?
Yes, but I only said that for effect. I though you would whole-heartedly agree with me that following God is the "correct" path.
Irony, how I love you.
Quote:You were wanting God to confirm a faith based in magic and wonder. God defines and outlines Faith in Hebrews 11. What you were doing was not 'on path faith.'
BibleGateway.com Wrote:"Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see. 2 This is what the ancients were commended for."
"confidence in what we hope for" = "wishful thinking"
"assurance about what we do not see" = "I'll believe regardless of whether or not I can prove this shit"
I'd say I was spot-on with my faith at that point in time.
Quote:Luke 11 perscribes a plan/path will give you all the evidence you need.
Does it now? At this point, even if I followed said plan and it failed, you would tell me that it didn't fail and I simply don't understand why it succeeded.
Quote:In that you did not carry yourself nor had any 'scars' of one who had spent a great deal of time helping people like the boy pictured. Yet you were ready and willing to judge God for something you yourself have never done.
As I should be!!
I don't have the power to end world hunger. I don't have the power to solve violence issues amongst warring clans or religious factions. I don't have the power to make any significant contribution to the world that would change the way people think of violence and physical needs.
Guess who does? Guess who not only has the power, but has such an abundance of power that changing the world in this way would be literally nothing to him?
God.
Yet he sits on his ass doing nothing.
This is why I don't get blamed for failed public policy and the president does: Because I don't have the power to make that change while the pres does.
Quote:This is critical, because we are told that we will be judged according to how we judge others. Meaning if you are to judge God for not helping then you yourself better have that base covered.
No, for reasons I have already explained. God is nothing more that a disgusting monster for allowing the pain that resounds around the world today, and even if I caused more pain than I ease (I don't) I would still be valid in calling him a monster for his unwillingness to act on the needs of the world.
Quote:Actually no I couldn't. (If I am to remain faithful to what i have been given) This is my all in all, I will not brag about what I do, just know that I can not do any more, and I take what little free time I do have and give the lion's share over to you people and a few others in places like this.
I enjoy the sentiment, but you would be better served to spend you time doing anything else. You are fun to speak with, for sure, but if your goal is the betterment of mankind your time can be better spent. That's all I'll say on that.
Quote:It's not what you do compared to another that makes your deeds count for the glory of God, it is the condition of one's heart when one is performing that deed.
I could care less what God thinks of the center of my cardiovascular system.
Quote:Are you saying that people who come here are less important in God's eyes than those who physically suffer?
I don't care what God thinks about us. He doesn't exist. I do know that you have better evidence for the suffering and dying of this world than for your God, which makes you less justified in being here than being in a place where people actually have needs.
Quote:Who (in the light of eternity) is better off? The one who suffers for 70 years physically, and sits at the right hand of Christ for his suffering brought him Spiritual prosperity. Or the one who is indulged physically, and is lost to eternity?
70 years? What delusion are you suffering through? The needy live for ten years, 4 years, sometimes to their older 20's. Those are the people I am talking about.
Quote:From God's persepective the one who starves spiritually and is indulged physically suffers the greatest.
I could care less what your unevidenced imaginary friend has to say on the matter. If he exists I owe no allegiance to him, for he is an asshole. Luckily for me, the chance that he exists is negligible because the lack of evidence is a resounding feature of modern apologetics.
Quote:I am spiritually starved from thor zeus and allah, and yet i do not sit around with like minded suffers and plot ways to increase my suffering..
I can't say this for everyone, but I don't come here to wallow in my own non-belief. I come here to spend time with like-minded individuals, to envelop myself in a community that I would otherwise be devoid of. I live in the Bible belt. Do you think I would be able to sit down with others who ditched their mysticism anywhere around here? It is important for people to spend time with others who share their sentiments, and this site allows people an outlet to do just that.
Quote:Yet here is a web site One of many who's titled purpose is to allow a place for people who supposedly do not believe in God an oppertunity to catagorize all the ways they do not believe.. Why is this needed if one truly does not believe?
Where is the sub-forum where we categorize all the ways we don't believe in God? Sorry, try again. The closest you'll get is a thread where atheists make fun of religiosity for its numerous flaws and atrocities.
Quote:I do not believe in a great number of things. None of which warrant 15 mins of my time over the entire course of my life time.
If everyone in the world felt that they ought to live by the great book of Unicornism and it was causing problems in society and on the personal level, would you let it go?
Oh, and I thought I'd share how laughable it is that you would spend 0 time on thing you don't believe but a whole life on a fairy tale. Just hysterical.
Quote:Yet there are people here who have spent thousands of post and hundreds of hours trying to convince themselves that they do not believe.
Get to the chopper! Fire your lasers@@! Our base is belong to them!
You have discovered our conspiracy to convince ourselves that there is no God!
What shall we do!?
Quote:
If you do not believe then remain silent. your silence speaks volumes, while your lengthy objections only say one thing....
Bullshit. Calling religion a pile of crap is a uniquely stimulating practice due to the fact that there are those who actually believe that shit. The fact that it does more harm than good everywhere in the world is just another factor, while the casuals through the forums reading posts are another. People who don't really know whether or not they believe will reach out for evidence and maybe a community. What could be better than offering them a place where there are nearly 90% atheists and only about 2% religious adherents? What better place to discuss the troubles religion is causing at the moment?
Quote:I have never claimed that i can prove the existance of God. nochristian can to another person. But God can and every Christ can point you in the direction to find God for yourself, if you truly want said proof.
Your proof is simple self-delusion. You'll never gain a convert from any knowledge-thirsty individual, from here or anywhere.
Proof is what we need, not constant self-indoctrination.
Quote:without doubt. But few can accuratly repersent the bible and still navigate these waters semi responsiably.
Your interpretation, you mean? Nobody can come on this site and preach your interpretation? You're right. Nobody but you. Others would clutter the waters and make
real truth difficult to obtain. Their tenuous interpretation would make the message watery and weak, huh?
lol
Quote:many people in the christian community considerpeople who fancy themselves to be anti God or 'Atheist' to be beyond the need for help.
Many people in the skeptical community see Christians to be beyond the grasp of rational discussion of their holy book and reasoning skills. Yet here I am. Do I get to be a saint too?
*BTW we're not "anti-God".
Quote:If I had not come from where I came from I would probably think the same.However, Someone took the time to Help me and answered my irreverant questions, and it changed my life.
Did they logically prove that God exists in some fashion, or did they just tutor you on the most efficient ways to delude yourself into believing in God?
Quote:I can not proove anything, but that is the wonderful thing. I don't have to. For God promsies 'Proof' for all who Ask, Seek, and Knock as outlined in Luke 11.
Proof wasn't offered to me, and won't ever be. If I ask god for proof and he doesn't answer me, knowing full well that I would end up and atheist who forfeits all other attempts to contact him, why didn't he help me at 14 when I needed it the most?
Just a thought, because I know why he didn't answer me.
Quote:NO! How many time must we do this???? One last time! God's Plan provides us an oppertunity to choose where we wish to spend eternity. In order to do this we must be set in a place away from the known glory of God.
If you have a question ask it now do not proceed till you understand this completely.
Remember when I told you I understood every single time You said this before? Refer to that. I won't explain again why I feel it is impossible for God to create a world with free will.
Quote:I will agree it is not the choice you want and you feel that is not fair. How is that can we agree there?
Alright, again. The phrase "planned choice" is contradictory for God.
Quote:then I would point out that this 'belief' was not biblically based.
implied from the text means that it uses the text as a source of reference.
Quote:Then I would point back to the direct command of Christ when he said: "When you pray, Pray like this..." Again nothing imlied we have a direct command. religious or traditional interpertations do not supperceed direct commands.
Since when has a direct command stopped cherry-pickers from cherry-picking?
Quote:It only matters if you really what to have an oppertunity to speak to God and have Him speak to you back. Otherwise it doesn't.
I think I missed this part. I can get him to answer me? Tell me again, in summary, how to do this?
Quote:Do you know what 'dogma' is? it is the thought that you are right. so yes. no matter what you believe you will dogmatically justify your beliefs with or without the bible.
Not everyone is dogmatic with their beliefs. Everyone who read this far will understand except you.
Quote:I simply say if your trying to worship the God of the bible then it is with the bible one must do it. If you want to pray then it will have to be how Christ shows us, and not by some 'understanding' you thought you had with God in sunday school.
Your cherry-picked variant is no better than anyone elses, unless, as you claim, I can actually get an answer from your God, in which case you ought to submit the method to be scientifically verified as this would surely save many lost souls.
Sorry for how long this is. I answered both replies in one, so it should be huuuge. Felt like I was writing the into to a novel.
