Prayer?

[Drich]

You are still confused as to the reason Jesus is said to have given the directive to avoid vain repetition. It was not because they were repeating the words, it was because they were repeating them without truly believing them and still has nothing at all to do with chanting. Chanting is something entirely different, unless you count the monks in the Catholic tradition who chant the prayers and psalms. However, even in this case, the chanting is still not vain repetition. To call it so is incredibly rude seeing as those who consider themselves Catholic, especially the monks and nuns, hold these chants to be sacred and filled with meaning. They feel that chanting them brings them into a closer communion with the god they worship.

There are many many more beside monks and nuns who chant prayers who chant empty meaningless prayers, blessings, hail marys, our fathers, and the like. If the message does not apply then to not streach it simply to argue a point.

I do apologize if I got the correct translation of the word wrong. I am not one to stand here and say I was write if I wasn't. So in the proper translation department I must concede to you unless I can be bothered to go research it and find that you are wrong, and frankly I don't care enough to do that right at this moment.

Just follow the links I provided when/if you do.

However I still hold that my original statement was true. You are maligning the word chant by grafting it onto the meaning of vain repetition. For those who use chants as a real and sacred way to tune their mind to whatever they feel to be divine they are certainly not guilty of vain repetition as you seem to adamant to say they are.

again your forcing an arguement that does not exist. For not all who chant do so for the purposes you have outlined.

Oh, and thank you for the welcome.

[/quote]

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What if the same mechinism that allows for freewill also caused all manner of suffering? (like cancer) Would you be willing to give up your free will to cure billy's cancer?

So this loving, all powerful deity can't figure out a way to allow free will without cancer being included as part of the package?

If that's the case, this deity is a moron.

Sin and consenquence. How would you seperate the two? For us to be in a position to live in sin God has removed Himself and requished control of this world, and has turn that control over to us. So now it is up to us to prevent things like cancer, hunger, earthquakes, and the like. If you do not want this responsiablity or think you and your fellow man have done a crap job. learn to pray for His Kingdom to come. for His will be done, on Earth as it is in Heaven. That is what this portion of the prayer also covers. For if God takes control again all needs will be met.

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If I missed your post just let me know and i will address it.

[Godscreated]

God does not work His will in that way, the cancer of one child would not have an effect on God's greater plan

Then why do children (or anyone, really) get cancer in the first place?

Could be a lot of different reasons, since I'm not a doctor I wouldn't know.

however God does have plans for individuals

So a child getting cancer is part of his plan. Your deity is a retard.

Not necessarily, God may use the situation to help a family in some way, or to help some individual unrelated to the family, to see how precious life is, or any number of things that life throws at us.

God may not heal the child in your example, if He does not it's for a reason that only God understands at the time.

How convenient! So your deity gets a pass because you think we're too stupid to understand his reasons for allowing a child to suffer with cancer and die? Why doesn't he try explaining it to the parents?

I believe I qualified a specific time, and god needs no pass, He is in control of everything. After the result of the illness has passed many will look back on the experience and see God's reason, at least those who will see or cares to see God's revelation to them.

Then He may heal the child and again if He does it would be for a reason only He would know at the time.

So your deity may or may not heal a child with cancer. Sounds like you may as well pray to a garden gnome.

If God doesn't heal, you have contempt for Him, and when God heals, you still have contempt for Him. You are a ungrateful person to the 3rd magnitude. When people ask God to heal a person and that's all they ask, that in itself shows how shallow their belief is, if they have any at all. How many prayers do you think have been raised up to God in hospitals with this little note attached a the end, "if you do this I promise I will always be loyal to you." Do people really believe they can fool God, especially since they just asked God to heal a loved one, I think not, they use God as an insurance policy. When people do this why should God answer their prayer and if He does do they deserve an explanation, I think not, why, because they will show their gratitude by ignoring God until the next crisis.

God is not required to give explanations of His actions,

Don't you mean, "God is not able to give explanations of his actions"?

Now you're trying to tell me about a being you do not even know exist, how funny, can we look forward to seeing you at a comedy club. Why should God explain something to those who will not listen, but for those who will listen great things can happen, take Nineveh for example.

though He has revealed them to many people in situations where he does or does not answer prayer as it is asked.

What a load! Where has this occurred? Who are these "many people"? How were his reasons "revealed"? Because I'm quite sure he didn't appear and talk to anyone.

Being a deacon in the Baptist church I've seen this happen many times, being a former youth leader in a Baptist church I've seen this many times, you need to spend sincere time with God before you can experience Him at this level, something I'm 100% positive you have not been capable of. Appear to them I do not think so, talk to them in His way definitely, like I said I've seen it.

Then there's something else to consider He may answer in a way that is far better, in a way no one has even considered.

Or..... he won't answer at all. I think this is much more likely.

God says He will not answer all prayer, God also says He will not listen to some prayers. I know for a fact He answers prayer, I've experienced it to many times for it to be remotely considered a coincidence, one example, prayers having specific properties within them.

[Minimalist]

Being a deacon in the Baptist church I've seen this happen many times, being a former youth leader in a Baptist church I've seen this many times, you need to spend sincere time with God

You can't demonstrate that your god exists....but there ARE baptists.... and they can go fuck themselves.

[Whateverist]

So, does it anger god to use this outline as an actual prayer?

No, it's just meaningless if you use it as a repetitious filler or chant. it is as harmless as a wishing cermony.

Okay, now I'm confused. I thought wishing was what Christians based belief on. The rest of us believe what we think there is reason to think true, while you guys believe that which you would wish to be true. So if belief is wishing, what do you need prayer for? Is it for praising God? I hear he really likes that.

[Thor]

Sin and consenquence. How would you seperate the two?

How does "sin" = cancer in a five year old?

For us to be in a position to live in sin God has removed Himself and requished control of this world, and has turn that control over to us.

Unsubstantiated bullshit.

So now it is up to us to prevent things like cancer, hunger, earthquakes, and the like.

Oh, please! It's up to us to prevent earthquakes, hurricanes and tornadoes? And how does a five year old prevent cancer? This is just ridiculous!

If you do not want this responsiablity or think you and your fellow man have done a crap job. learn to pray for His Kingdom to come.

I don't ask imaginary beings to do anything. It's a complete waste of time.

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[quote='Thor']Then why do children (or anyone, really) get cancer in the first place?

Could be a lot of different reasons, since I'm not a doctor I wouldn't know.

I wasn't asking this question from a medical standpoint. I was asking why your supposedly "loving" deity would allow a child to suffer with cancer.

Not necessarily, God may use the situation to help a family in some way,

WHAT?!?!? How in the hell could inflicting someone with cancer ever help a family? Not to mention that battling cancer creates great hardships and causes people to go bankrupt. If this deity is so stupid that he thinks inflicting cancer on someone "helps the family", I would want him to stay far away from me.

or to help some individual unrelated to the family, to see how precious life is, or any number of things that life throws at us.

Wow! So you think your deity might inflict cancer on you to help someone who is unrelated to you "see how precious life is"? So you would be okay with it if this deity gave your child cancer so your next door neighbor could say, "Look at that poor kid next door. It makes me realize how precious life is"?

I believe I qualified a specific time, and god needs no pass, He is in control of everything.

Unsubstantiated bullshit.

After the result of the illness has passed many will look back on the experience and see God's reason

Yes, I'm sure once the funeral is over the parents say "I just had a revelation and I now know god's reasons for letting Billy suffer! Praise!"

If God doesn't heal, you have contempt for Him

Wrong. I don't have contempt for imaginary beings. I do have contempt for the idea that there is a loving deity, but he does nothing while children suffer and die with cancer.

and when God heals, you still have contempt for Him.

You haven't provided any evidence that this deity has ever healed anyone.

You are a ungrateful person to the 3rd magnitude.

Not at all! If this deity appeared and healed me or a member of my family, I'd be very grateful. Of course, I would still wonder why he did nothing to heal all those children who died throughout history.

When people ask God to heal a person and that's all they ask, that in itself shows how shallow their belief is, if they have any at all. How many prayers do you think have been raised up to God in hospitals with this little note attached a the end, "if you do this I promise I will always be loyal to you." Do people really believe they can fool God, especially since they just asked God to heal a loved one, I think not, they use God as an insurance policy. When people do this why should God answer their prayer and if He does do they deserve an explanation, I think not, why, because they will show their gratitude by ignoring God until the next crisis.

Except that there have been many people who have devoted their lives to this deity and, in a moment of crisis, have turned to him for help. Only to get none.

Why should God explain something to those who will not listen

If your deity appeared and explained his reasons to me, I would most certainly listen.

Being a deacon in the Baptist church I've seen this happen many times

I'm sure you THINK you've seen this many times. Of course, there's nothing to substantiate any of it.

God says He will not answer all prayer, God also says He will not listen to some prayers.

Actually, in the Babble Jesus says that you will have whatever you want as long as you believe and pray in his name.

I know for a fact He answers prayer,

You can't possibly know this "for a fact".

I've experienced it to many times for it to be remotely considered a coincidence, one example, prayers having specific properties within them.

Why couldn't it be a coincidence? What specifically was prayed for and what happened? I'll bet you never prayed for a paralyzed person to made whole again and they got up and walked. I'll bet you never prayed for a person with a missing limb to have the limb restored and it suddenly regenerated.

[Cato]

Drich,
I simply don't understand the intent of the OP. I understand what you're after and had some of the same concerns when I was 6 and made to memorize the Lord's Prayer and the traditional Catholic dinner chant, but what type of reaction did you expect?

Anti-theist - Fuuuuuck
Athesit - Pray to who?
Deist - May as well pray to a magic eight ball. Quit bothering God with your troubles/wishes.
Muslim/Jew/other religion - doesn't apply and breaks down to arguing about divine texts and books
Christian - Aren't Christian forums better places for this discussion?

OR????????

Have you already tried the Christian joints and found that a vast majority believe in intercessory prayer and won't engage you in the nuance of what Jesus was supposed to have taught?

[Skepsis]

Not necessarily, God may use the situation to help a family in some way, or to help some individual unrelated to the family, to see how precious life is, or any number of things that life throws at us.

Do you think there is a person on this vast planet that not only has little grasp on the sanctity of life but would not understand unless a next of kin dies? That's pathetic. Your God is a retard or a monster.

I believe I qualified a specific time, and god needs no pass, He is in control of everything. After the result of the illness has passed many will look back on the experience and see God's reason, at least those who will see or cares to see God's revelation to them.

God is in control of everything but can't save a single child from their fate? And he is a good being?
At the end of this bit you say those who care to see God's revelation will see it. So, only the biased ignorant sheep will see a hideous monster who allowed their child to die as a rainbow endowed lollipop distributor. Convenient.

If God doesn't heal, you have contempt for Him, and when God heals, you still have contempt for Him. You are a ungrateful person to the 3rd magnitude. When people ask God to heal a person and that's all they ask, that in itself shows how shallow their belief is, if they have any at all.

Quite a demanding creature, isn't he?
"I love everyone," he says, "except those who beg me to take an action that wouldn't inconvenience me in the slightest and would save a likely innocent person from sure death."
Sickening, really.

Why should God explain something to those who will not listen, but for those who will listen great things can happen, take Nineveh for example.

Do you believe in a literal hell? If so, that's why.

Being a deacon in the Baptist church I've seen this happen many times, being a former youth leader in a Baptist church I've seen this many times, you need to spend sincere time with God before you can experience Him at this level, something I'm 100% positive you have not been capable of. Appear to them I do not think so, talk to them in His way definitely, like I said I've seen it.

See that bold text? That ought to translate to, "You have to spend serious time confirming your silly beliefs to have such a high level of confirmation bias."

God says He will not answer all prayer, God also says He will not listen to some prayers. I know for a fact He answers prayer, I've experienced it to many times for it to be remotely considered a coincidence, one example, prayers having specific properties within them.

Prayers don't work and it's only your severe confirmation bias that allows you to believe that they do. How many thousands of times did you pray before you got an answer? I'm not talking about little things, like "help me find the strength" or "allow my actions to yield great results". I'm talking about something big, like praying for a relative's success in the face of extreme odds or for the survival of someone whose chances are near 0%.

[Cyberman]

Ok, let's forget about our hypothetical little boy for a moment. Maybe he's just too small for a god to notice or bother with. Instead, let's pray for an end to all cancer; wipe cancer from the face of the planet. It would be trivial for an entity with the powers of a god; after all, mere human scientists have done just that with smallpox (apart from samples held in extremely secure storage, just in case). Just imagine the suffering that would be alleviated by ending a horrible disease like cancer. What would happen as a result of our prayer? And I'm not talking about praying for medical science to stumble upon a breakthrough, either; it's a now-you-see-it-now-you-don't thing I'm after. Is that the sort of prayer this god would listen to?

[Minimalist]

Instead, let's pray for an end to all cancer; wipe cancer from the face of the planet.

Drippy's god likes cancer.

Because he is a prick.

[Drich]

How does "sin" = cancer in a five year old?

God hands the reigns over to allow for sin. It's an all or nothing deal. If we want to be under Gods care and protection from things like cancer hunger and natural disasters then we must be in His will which means no sin or rather we can not be in our own will.
That is why Heaven is free of these things because that realm completely follows His will His plan, and subsequently it falls under His protection.

Unsubstantiated bullshit.

substantiated by the same book that establishes the existance of God. If you acknoweledge God by asking a question like 'how can God..." then you have to also accept the answer provided by the same source material that gives you the information to ask your question.

Oh, please! It's up to us to prevent earthquakes, hurricanes and tornadoes? And how does a five year old prevent cancer? This is just ridiculous!

He doesn't, but he lives in a realm where his forefathers accepted complete responsiablity for everything God would normally be responsiable for.

I wasn't asking this question from a medical standpoint. I was asking why your supposedly "loving" deity would allow a child to suffer with cancer.

As 'we' have already discussed God is not subject to your expectation of 'loving.'

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Drich,
I simply don't understand the intent of the OP. I understand what you're after and had some of the same concerns when I was 6 and made to memorize the Lord's Prayer and the traditional Catholic dinner chant, but what type of reaction did you expect?

Anti-theist - Fuuuuuck
Athesit - Pray to who?
Deist - May as well pray to a magic eight ball. Quit bothering God with your troubles/wishes.
Muslim/Jew/other religion - doesn't apply and breaks down to arguing about divine texts and books
Christian - Aren't Christian forums better places for this discussion?

OR????????

Have you already tried the Christian joints and found that a vast majority believe in intercessory prayer and won't engage you in the nuance of what Jesus was supposed to have taught?

I have several conversation in public and private where the loss of faith boiled down to a series of unanswered prayers/wishes. although some of the stories were touching, none of which followed the model of prayer offered by Christ.

so why did I feel like i should share this? because IF any of you want to reach out to God, I thought you'd might want the best possiable shot of reaching Him. (through actual prayer, and not through desperate wishing when you world is falling apart and you have no other place to turn.)

It seems some of you have been looking for this missing element.