Prayer?

[Cyberman]

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I'm old for my age, my mind gets tired easily from following these 'special needs' gymnastics at the best of times (plus these new meds don't exactly help; still, one of the potential known side effects is "sudden unexplained death", so not all bad news). If you have a point for sending me back down the snake to square one in a forty-two page thread, either hold my hand and guide a poor addled old atheist to what it is, or give me my £200 for passing GO. And yes I am deliberately mixing up my Milton Bradley/Waddingtons metaphors.

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As we do not have a "waddingtons" I have no Idea what your talking about. If you want a link to the actual content of that post I have no idea where it is exactly, but i did cut and repost on a Christian site to see what they could do with it: http://www.christianforums.com/t7643307/

Same thread, just different responses.

Remember I am from the Angel Isle; Waddingtons is the company responsible for publishing the game Monopoly over here. Isn't Google amazing? Now take that condescending red herring, stick it up your arse and behave like the semi-mature adult I have been treating you as up to this point. You don't have the wit to take me on.

[Thor]

[quote='Thor' pid='319465' dateline='1344102446']
How does "sin" = cancer in a five year old?

God hands the reigns over to allow for sin. It's an all or nothing deal. If we want to be under Gods care and protection from things like cancer hunger and natural disasters then we must be in His will which means no sin or rather we can not be in our own will.

And..... this makes no sense whatsoever.

That is why Heaven is free of these things because that realm completely follows His will His plan, and subsequently it falls under His protection.

You have any evidence that "Heaven" actually exists?

Didn't think so.

Unsubstantiated bullshit.

substantiated by the same book that establishes the existance of God.

Which is no evidence at all. Do you believe the Koran? Why not? That book establishes the existence of Allah.

If you acknoweledge God by asking a question like 'how can God..." then you have to also accept the answer provided by the same source material that gives you the information to ask your question.

I don't acknowledge deities. Phrasing a question by saying "How can god..." does not actually acknowledge your deity. You don't understand ths?

Oh, please! It's up to us to prevent earthquakes, hurricanes and tornadoes? And how does a five year old prevent cancer? This is just ridiculous!

He doesn't, but he lives in a realm where his forefathers accepted complete responsiablity for everything God would normally be responsiable for.

What crap. So your deity just washes his hands of everything? So why worship him?

I wasn't asking this question from a medical standpoint. I was asking why your supposedly "loving" deity would allow a child to suffer with cancer.

As 'we' have already discussed God is not subject to your expectation of 'loving.'

Obviously not. Any being that could cure or prevent cancer in a child and does nothing doesn't count as "loving" under any definition.

[Drich]

Sooo... none?

So, none what?

The blame lies on God even more so with this theory. First of all, trillions of years? Really?

sounds kinda silly when you say it like that, but alas that is what evolutionist still believe, and say they can provide 'evidence' for the trillions of years between creation and the fall of man. (about 6000 years ago) So appearently yes really. (Even though between you and me it sounds alittle far fetched)

You can't assume that, just because there was no timeline, A&E lived for trillions of years.

A&E were allowed to eat from the tree of life. so why would they eat of the tree of knoweledge (forbidden) if they haven't eaten of the tree of life first?
As Genesis explains The tree of life allows one to live forever.

As 'trillions of years' is a drop in the bucket next to forever, then it is not beyond the prameters of the creation account for Adam and eve to have lived that long.

Second, if God created them with curiosity and made it so they would live forever, whose fault is it when they run out of things to question and test?He put them in a confined environment and allowed them infinite life.

Again, that was the point. Adam and Eve did everything according to plan. Even the fall was apart of the plan. without it none of us would have been here.

Eve knew that Satan was lying? How?

Because it was in direct opposition of what God told Her. The same God she potentially knew for trillions of years. The God that created them and walk along side them in the garden.

Animals never meant any harm before, why should she suspect anything?

Because God told Her directly.

Eve only heard this command secondhand from Adam, so it held less authority. Then a magic snake comes and fools the most gullible one, and the blame is on them? Nope, I still don't see it.

Genesis 3:2 seem to disagree with your account of things. Satan asks what did god tell her and She repeats the warning. Eve knew what she was doing. again which was apart of the plan.
Otherwise the tree nor satan would have ever been allowed in the Garden. This whole thing was about choice from the beginning.

But it was a punishment. It was detrimental to the people and was a consequence, making it a punishment. A punishment for something they shouldn't have been expected to follow through with anyway.

If you have sex with someone with aids and you contract HIV is it a consenquence or punishment? God told them what would happen, and it did. That is a consenquence as the direct result of an specific action.
The 'punishment' was to be found in the hard labor Men were to do and the pains of labor women experienced in child birth. The handing the world over and making man responsiable for everything was a consenquence.
Even if you insist that it was still a punishment, Punishments are always a consenquence of undesired action. Still makes it a consenquence.

Humans are easily fooled.

Only when we want to be.
This is what satan played on. They wanted to be fooled and were looking for any reason to be fooled into doing something they knew was wrong, but wanted to do anyway..

We can't even tell reality from a dream half the time. I hear Satan's name means "deceiver". With Eve having little knowledge of God firsthand, she was the perfect target for being fooled. Both of them knew nothing about malevolent people or things trying to trick them, and were perfect targets. God knew all this and allowed Satan to continue in his existence anyway. You are trying to blame the victim, even if the scenario is in a fairytale.

There is no blame as it was apart of the plan, and yet God took responsiablity for the sins commited anyway.

And the bald man wanted hair so much he purchased snake oil from the salesman, despite the fact it would bankrupt his family.
Their fault was gullibility, even though they had no experience with other people? Keep in mind that even people who have been fooled before and are aware of the phenomenon can still be gullible.

They knew of death. God warned them they would die if they ate of that fruit.. what else is their to say? they wanted to eat of that fruit probably because they did everything else 1000 times over and want to see what elses there was to experience. Even in the face of the warning God gave them.

The Old testament.

Sorry, should have been more clear. Real evidence.

Do i have to seriously explain this "moving the goal post" fallacy to each and every one of you?

If you are speaking about God and the bible is the only book that defines God or if you ask a question that is based on what the bible tells you, then the bible (like it or not) becomes a legitmate source. or "real evidence."
You can not base a question from the bible and then refuse the bible as a legitmate source to answer a question derived from with in it's pages.

A blood sacrifice scapegoat? Why doesn't he just forgive us and recognize us for who he created us as? Why doesn't he have compassion for the creations he supposedly knows everything about? Killing and resurrecting someone is hardly a sacrifice, common sense tells us that. Why not just recognize our faults and be forgiving, rather than forcing a belief on everyone? 'Tis silly.

God's leading attribute is righteousness and not Love. Otherwise how could He sacerfice His son?

Righteousness Demands that the wage of sin be paid out. Or that attonement be offered in the sinners stead.

Sooooo... prayer doesn't work?

Prayer does, wish making, not so much.

You didn't answer my objection, you just offered me the common Xtian babble.

I've answered this question 10 times, and addressed it once in the OP. I thought it to be rhetorical

I am not one of your sheep. That shit doesn't work on a questioning individual.

appearently not. although one could argue that the only difference being, is that the supposed 'sheep' seem to read/listen and doesn't need to asked questions that have been answered this many times...

Either take back the part about God being blameless, or take back the part about prayer being futile.

Why?

[The Grand Nudger]

Wait, wait, so, certain parts of genesis are literal (not the biblical narrative et all, but just genesis) and other parts aren't? You get to insert trillions of years where it suits you but have to go full on literal where it suits the serpent? Massive bullshit. We have not been here for trillions of years -regardless of how far-fetched it sounds to you-. Trees do not impart wisdom, nor do they impart eternal life. Educate yourself and stop embarrassing your god.

[Drich]

As we do not have a "waddingtons" I have no Idea what your talking about. If you want a link to the actual content of that post I have no idea where it is exactly, but i did cut and repost on a Christian site to see what they could do with it: http://www.christianforums.com/t7643307/

Same thread, just different responses.

Remember I am from the Angel Isle; Waddingtons is the company responsible for publishing the game Monopoly over here. Isn't Google amazing? Now take that condescending red herring, stick it up your arse and behave like the semi-mature adult I have been treating you as up to this point. You don't have the wit to take me on.

Calm down stimmy I just thought "waddingtons" was a funny name. (still do) I answered the question I thought you were asking. if not rephrase your request in 'american' and i will see what i can do.

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What crap. So your deity just washes his hands of everything?

I think you just now got it.

So why worship him?

Worship is not a form of currency. were we exchange praise for stuff we want. true worship is an expression of love, and is not bought or awarded because of what one may get. we worship God as a greatful son honors and loves his father.

Obviously not. Any being that could cure or prevent cancer in a child and does nothing doesn't count as "loving" under any definition.

Again what if that cure cost you, your ablity to choose anything outside of God's expressed will?

You have the ablity to usher in an age where there will be no more cancer, are you doing your part or are you doing nothing?

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Wait, wait, so, certain parts of genesis are literal (not the biblical narrative et all, but just genesis) and other parts aren't? You get to insert trillions of years where it suits you but have to go full on literal where it suits the serpent? Massive bullshit. We have not been here for trillions of years -regardless of how far-fetched it sounds to you-. Trees do not impart wisdom, nor do they impart eternal life. Educate yourself and stop embarrassing your god.

What parts aren't? More over what parts did i say weren't?

[Cyberman]

Ok. You sent me to page one on this thread, sort of a text-based time loop. I have no idea what you were trying to tell me by doing this, so if you could hand whatever point you were aiming for on a plate for me, I'll be thankful. Then you can tell me what all this was about.

Oh, and Waddingtons. There, made you laugh.

[Thor]

God does not interfere with way things go in the world necessarily.

Right. He doesn't interfere with the way things go in the world for the same reason that Sherlock Holmes doesn't assist in murder investigations.

God is interested in our eternal life, that's not to say this life is not important to Him, but like God says what good is it for a man to gain the whole world and then lose his soul. God wants all of us with Him forever, that however our choice.

Unsubstantiated hooey.

What do you mean what, no one said God inflicted cancer on anyone, that's your way of seeing God, you want Him to look as bad as possible.

Your deity pretty much looks bad all by himself. Just look at the world. If this is the best he can do, he's a retard.

When He does heal those with terrible diseases you couldn't care less.

Please provide any verified example where this deity has healed someone.

Again you are interjecting God as the one who inflict disease, prove your statement. This interjection renders the rest of your statement useless.

Can't your deity prevent or cure this disease with no effort whatsoever? If so, what difference does it make if he inflicted it? He can end it. But he chooses not to. At a minimum that's being a prick. At most, it's being an evil monster.

Like I said before only those who are going to listen to God will hear Him,

He speaks? You can hear his words? What does his voice sound like? Is it low like Barry White? Does he have an accent?

Why would you not ask Him, I mean there He is standing in front of you. just ask.

No one is standing in front of me.

Except that there have been many people who have devoted their lives to this deity and, in a moment of crisis, have turned to him for help. Only to get none.

You need to prove this statement.

I personally know people who are devout Christians and had a child fall ill. They prayed to your deity and asked for help, but the child died. And I'm sure this scenario has been repeated ad nauseum throughout history.

Why does He need to appear, I do not need to see Him to know He's working in my life.

How about so I know he exists? Or is that too much to ask? And I have never seen this deity "work in my life". Even when I was a believer.

I'm sure you THINK you've seen this many times. Of course, there's nothing to substantiate any of it.

Yes there is, my personal experiences with Him,

WHAT "personal experiences"? Did he drop in for coffee? Did he knock on your door? Maybe he appeared on your tv? Because I'm betting these "personal experiences" are nothing but things you have "felt" and no one else can substantiate.

I've seen God work in peoples lives many times, I have no doubt.

Really? Or have you just seen people pick themselves up and move forward through tough times and then credit your deity?

Actually, in the Babble Jesus says that you will have whatever you want as long as you believe and pray in his name.

I know what verse you basing this statement on, however you're wrong, the meaning of that verse in't close to what you say.

Do I need to quote it? Because it's pretty clear in it's meaning. Believe in me. Pray in my name. You'll get whatever you pray for.

Of course, we all know that doesn't work. So you folks need to explain it away. "Oh, that's not what it means!" But you're awful quick to accept the literal meaning of most other parts of the Babble.

Yes I do, I've seen to many prayers answered with specifics, all of them could not have been coincidental. No way to many answered.

And how many prayers have NOT been answered? I'm betting you have a severe case of confirmation bias. You remember when the prayers seemingly were answered, but you forget the far more numerous times nothing happened.

No, I haven't prayed for those things, they have not been a part of my life.

Okay. Fair enough. I have a friend who lost part of his leg to cancer. Why don't you pray for his leg to grow back? I'm sure he'd appreciate having his leg whole again. If you do, I'll let you know if my buddy's leg regenerates.

I've been on this forum long enough to know not to share those personal specifics, you guys are merciless.

Is it because you know "the specifics" can be shot down very easily? Is it because you have nothing to verify where these prayers supposedly worked?

You care nothing for the feelings of believers.

When believers come on this forum spewing unsubstantiated crap, I have no considerations for their "feelings" when I shoot them down. I imagine most others here feel the same way.

[Drich]

Ok. You sent me to page one on this thread, sort of a text-based time loop. I have no idea what you were trying to tell me by doing this, so if you could hand whatever point you were aiming for on a plate for me, I'll be thankful. Then you can tell me what all this was about.

Oh, and Waddingtons. There, made you laugh.

The point I was making was to prove you were apart of a 43 page discussion about how long adam and eve could have potentially remained in the garden and why. then when this came up again in this thread it was as if someone rebooted you and did not save any of the pervious work.

[The Grand Nudger]

Presuming that Adam and Eve were both fully modern humans (and ignoring the fact that they are fictional characters entirely), and presuming that the fall happened what, 6k years ago or thereabouts (and ignoring the fact that it didn't happen at all)...... then they could have been in the garden, at best, 44k years.

Your timeline is still jacked up, no matter how wholeheartedly you swallow the story. Lets be clear, you don't wholeheartedly swallow the story anyway, because the text gives us numbers, you just aren't satisfied with them. They don't seem to fit the evidence, I understand. Well guess what, there isn't a way to spin this narrative to make it fit. Oh well.

Ah, while we're at it

"Righteousness Demands that the wage of sin be paid out. Or that attonement be offered in the sinners stead." No it doesn't. You do. Good luck with that.

[Drich]

Presuming that Adam and Eve were both fully modern humans (and ignoring the fact that they are fictional characters entirely), and presuming that the fall happened what, 6k years ago or thereabouts...... then they could have been in the garden, at best, 44k years.

Your timeline is still jacked up, no matter how wholeheartedly you swallow the story. Lets be clear, you don't wholeheartedly swallow the story anyway, because the text gives us numbers, you just aren't satisfied with them. They don't seem to fit the evidence, I understand. Well guess what, there isn't a way to spin this narrative to make it fit. Oh well.

Please explain. what numbers?