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RE: What was the actual sacrifice that Jesus made?
August 14, 2012 at 10:54 am
(This post was last modified: August 14, 2012 at 11:32 am by spockrates.)
(August 14, 2012 at 8:36 am)pgrimes15 Wrote: (August 14, 2012 at 8:30 am)Drich Wrote: He was seperated from the Father. He accepted the consenquences that was slated for us/sinners.
Ahh. Getting somewhere now. If the sacrifice was being seperated from the Father, why did he need to be crucified?
Doesn't this imply that during Jesus' life the holy trinity became the holy duo ?
Regards
Grimesy
As I understand, the separation was not one of essence, but one of relationship. God being (so to speak) one what in three whos, the Son had never not been in communion with the Father until that point in time. It's a kind of suffering one who is one person might not be able to comprehend. There is also some biblical evidence that the past and the future are experienced eternally as the present for God, and that God remains unchanged by the events of time. If this is the case, there might be some sense in which the suffering of God never ends and is, like God forever.
(August 14, 2012 at 9:51 am)jupitor Wrote: He sacrificed his own life for the belief in God. He wouldn't denounce Christianity. He'd rather die for his beliefs, in the hope others would follow.
I would denounce it rather than die.
But my opinion is that Jesus never existed. He's part of Greek mythology. He only spoke in parables, or Greek philosophy, rather. No one speaks like that all the time.
If you are studying the New International Bible, can you please glance through Matthew/mark/Luke/John.? In one verse it says Jesus is somewhere [I can't recall which town] and he is saying he is the son of God. A woman says...'but you are a Greek.'
Can you find which page/verse it is in please?
I could not find the passage you mentioned, and do not recall anyone claiming Jesus was not Jewish. Perhaps you can find it for us?
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RE: What was the actual sacrifice that Jesus made?
August 14, 2012 at 11:38 am
Quote:Perhaps I should go on a Xtian forum for these answers.
Easier for them to ban you. The one thing those fuckers hate more than sin is dissent.
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RE: What was the actual sacrifice that Jesus made?
August 14, 2012 at 11:42 am
spockrates Wrote:As I understand, the separation was not one of essence, but one of relationship. God being (so to speak) one what in three whos, the Son had never not been in communion with the Father until that point in time. It's a kind of suffering one who is one person might not be able to comprehend. There is also some biblical evidence that the past and the future are experienced eternally as the present for God, and that God remains unchanged by the events of time. If this is the case, there might be some sense in which the suffering of God never ends and is, like God forever.
You are correct about them believing that the past/future is the present for God. That sort of theology was also common with Dionysus and Attis.
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RE: What was the actual sacrifice that Jesus made?
August 14, 2012 at 11:56 am
@ spockrates
I have looked on that web and it doesn't find it. I have definitely read it in the new version. Jesus' words are printed in red. It was one I borrowed so I haven't got a copy to look at.
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RE: What was the actual sacrifice that Jesus made?
August 14, 2012 at 11:56 am
(August 14, 2012 at 10:54 am)spockrates Wrote: As I understand, the separation was not one of essence, but one of relationship. God being (so to speak) one what in three whos, the Son had never not been in communion with the Father until that point in time. It's a kind of suffering one who is one person might not be able to comprehend. There is also some biblical evidence that the past and the future are experienced eternally as the present for God, and that God remains unchanged by the events of time. If this is the case, there might be some sense in which the suffering of God never ends and is, like God forever.
OK. So the father part of the trinity is not speaking to the son part for 30 years and thats the torment. So why did Jesus have to be sacrificed by crucifiction ?
Regards
Grimesy
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RE: What was the actual sacrifice that Jesus made?
August 14, 2012 at 11:59 am
(This post was last modified: August 14, 2012 at 12:00 pm by Anomalocaris.)
(August 14, 2012 at 11:42 am)FallentoReason Wrote: spockrates Wrote:As I understand, the separation was not one of essence, but one of relationship. God being (so to speak) one what in three whos, the Son had never not been in communion with the Father until that point in time. It's a kind of suffering one who is one person might not be able to comprehend. There is also some biblical evidence that the past and the future are experienced eternally as the present for God, and that God remains unchanged by the events of time. If this is the case, there might be some sense in which the suffering of God never ends and is, like God forever.
You are correct about them believing that the past/future is the present for God. That sort of theology was also common with Dionysus and Attis.
So suffering is but a permanent unavoidable state for god. Nice of him to make a virtue out of necessity and try to compel us to thank him for that which he neither effected nor could have avoided.
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RE: What was the actual sacrifice that Jesus made?
August 14, 2012 at 12:48 pm
(This post was last modified: August 14, 2012 at 12:49 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Um....."biblical evidence"..really Spock?
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RE: What was the actual sacrifice that Jesus made?
August 14, 2012 at 1:21 pm
(August 14, 2012 at 9:51 am)jupitor Wrote: If you are studying the New International Bible, can you please glance through Matthew/mark/Luke/John.? In one verse it says Jesus is somewhere [I can't recall which town] and he is saying he is the son of God. A woman says...'but you are a Greek.'
Can you find which page/verse it is in please? John 4:9 NIV:
The Samaritan woman said to him, "You are a Jew and I am a Samaritan woman. How can you ask me for a drink?" (For Jews do not associate with Samaritans.)
The next verse Jesus claims to be God. Is this the event you speak of?
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RE: What was the actual sacrifice that Jesus made?
August 14, 2012 at 1:22 pm
(This post was last modified: August 14, 2012 at 2:13 pm by spockrates.)
(August 14, 2012 at 11:56 am)jupitor Wrote: @spockrates
I have looked on that web and it doesn't find it. I have definitely read it in the new version. Jesus' words are printed in red. It was one I borrowed so I haven't got a copy to look at.
OK. From what I understand, the New Testament describes him as being born of a Jewish mother and in Bethlehem (just outside of Jerusalem). The Bible does indicate that his parents took him to live in Egypt for a time, so I can see why someone would accuse him of being gentile, rather than Jewish. Nazareth, where he grew up after returning from Egypt was also known as a place where Jewish and non-Jewish people intermarried. As one of Jesus' disciples put it before he met him:
“Nazareth! Can anything good come from there?”
(John 1:46)
Jesus was sometimes accused of being a bastard, since Joseph was not his biological father, so the rumor might have started due to that. There are writings of ancient Jewish critics of Christ regarding this accusation that his mother became pregnant prior to marriage. Do you think what you read was something Jewish and extra-biblical?
(August 14, 2012 at 11:42 am)FallentoReason Wrote: spockrates Wrote:As I understand, the separation was not one of essence, but one of relationship. God being (so to speak) one what in three whos, the Son had never not been in communion with the Father until that point in time. It's a kind of suffering one who is one person might not be able to comprehend. There is also some biblical evidence that the past and the future are experienced eternally as the present for God, and that God remains unchanged by the events of time. If this is the case, there might be some sense in which the suffering of God never ends and is, like God forever.
You are correct about them believing that the past/future is the present for God. That sort of theology was also common with Dionysus and Attis.
I thought Dionysus was the drunken demigod of wine, not time!
(August 14, 2012 at 11:56 am)pgrimes15 Wrote: (August 14, 2012 at 10:54 am)spockrates Wrote: As I understand, the separation was not one of essence, but one of relationship. God being (so to speak) one what in three whos, the Son had never not been in communion with the Father until that point in time. It's a kind of suffering one who is one person might not be able to comprehend. There is also some biblical evidence that the past and the future are experienced eternally as the present for God, and that God remains unchanged by the events of time. If this is the case, there might be some sense in which the suffering of God never ends and is, like God forever.
OK. So the father part of the trinity is not speaking to the son part for 30 years and thats the torment. So why did Jesus have to be sacrificed by crucifiction ?
Regards
Grimesy
Actually, the separation is said to have occurred in time only while Jesus suffered crucifixion. Hence, passages speaking of God the Father forsaking him for our sakes, and Jesus' words on cried out prior to death:
“My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”
(Mark 15:34)
Jesus could have been sacrificed any way. That Jesus was sacrificed by crucifixion was predicted by Old Testament prophets. If he was executed some other way, the Old Testament prophets (such as Isiah) would be proven to be false prophets (according to the standard set by Moses in Deuteronomy 18, where he writes that only true prophets of God accurately predict the future).
The main method of execution prior to the Roman occupation was stoning. There were only short periods in ancient Jewish history when this form of execution was prevalent.
In my opinion, crucifixion was necessary to show us that God the Father knew exactly how the Messiah would die, even thousands of years prior to his death. It's historical evidence--like writing history centuries before it happens.
(August 14, 2012 at 11:59 am)Chuck Wrote: (August 14, 2012 at 11:42 am)FallentoReason Wrote: You are correct about them believing that the past/future is the present for God. That sort of theology was also common with Dionysus and Attis.
So suffering is but a permanent unavoidable state for god. Nice of him to make a virtue out of necessity and try to compel us to thank him for that which he neither effected nor could have avoided.
Well, I suppose he could have thrown up his hands and cried, "To hell with y'all!"
(August 14, 2012 at 12:48 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Um....."biblical evidence"..really Spock?
Predicting the future with 100% accuracy, 100% of the time. Can any fairy tale accomplish that? Personally, I've found it compelling.
:p
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RE: What was the actual sacrifice that Jesus made?
August 14, 2012 at 2:12 pm
(August 14, 2012 at 8:36 am)pgrimes15 Wrote: Ahh. Getting somewhere now. If the sacrifice was being seperated from the Father, why did he need to be crucified? I would assume for the same reason He was incarnated as a man. so we would know and understand what was happening spiritually.
Quote:Doesn't this imply that during Jesus' life the holy trinity became the holy duo ?
According to Revelations Christ still retains power and Authority as a member of the God Head, but we do not know what the full extent of His sacerfice meant.
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