Why was the crucifixion necessary ?

[Minimalist]

Of course all of that requires that the story be true.

If only you had some evidence that it was instead of nothing but the blithering of later writers.

[Undeceived]

Of course all of that requires that the story be true.

If only you had some evidence that it was instead of nothing but the blithering of later writers.

There is enough evidence for you to choose to believe. "Proof" and "truth" are two very distinct things. No one can prove a historical figure, but they can believe they lived. Do you demand I show that Julius Caesar lived? Or do you already believe he did?

[Minimalist]

There is enough evidence for you to choose to believe.

Dickheads who 'choose to believe' do not need evidence in the first place.

Thank you for confirming that you have none.

[pgrimes15]

I believe so. Any execution would have worked--the point is that Jesus had to be sentenced and die for a crime he did not commit.

Why ?

IBeing wrongfully condemned tends to invoke stronger emotions than an unfortunate accident. Why do you think that is?

Agreed. Miscarriages of justice do invoke strong emotions. For instance I was moved to write to my MP about the Bridgewater Four - a famous example of wrongful conviction which cost the men years of their life and one of them died in prison. But I don't think any of them are god.

Crucifixion has the added element of torture to impress on us,

Theatre ?

It also shows Christ's love--one half of the reason Jesus died is to redeem us, the other half is so we might realize love and put it into practice in our own lives.

Explain exactly how god/jesus dying redeems us ?

Surely Jesus did not die, but only the human body he was occupying (is it possible to kill god ?). Moreover he knew he wasn't going to die.

Regards

Grimesy

---

I asked why there had to be a crucifixion.

A better question - what did Jesus sacrifice?

I tried to address this issue in a previous thread
http://atheistforums.org/thread-14283.html

Regards

Grimesy

[Undeceived]

I believe so. Any execution would have worked--the point is that Jesus had to be sentenced and die for a crime he did not commit.

Why ?

Because 'justice' is not served. Jesus is punished for sins he did not commit (namely, ours), while we go unpunished for sins we did commit. They cancel out nicely, don't you think?
Could this have been accomplished by natural death? That is not ruled out, because the Bible does not rule it out. An execution is stronger thematically. It mirrors our own situation. That's as far as I can go.

Explain exactly how god/jesus dying redeems us ?

We break the inherent law of goodness in nature. We deserve punishment (the way a murderer does). Jesus takes our place. Thus, we do not have to die. And God can remain perfectly just (since letting us go scot free he would be unjust). But God/Jesus is more powerful than death, as Acts 2:24 says, "But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him."
Jesus' new life gives us hope that we will resurrect also.

If you want deeper answers, I suggest you delve into the Bible itself. To wonder if Jesus could have died another way is a sidestep topic. He died the way he did, and that saves us from punishment. Can you think of a better way he could have died? Or let's put your argument another way:

I have a sailboat. Could I sail it without sails? Maybe. You could challenge me to sail it mastless. But which is better, with sails or without sails?

Even if we concluded Jesus could have died in a less impactful way, what would that accomplish? Atheists-0. Theists-0. Idle chatter-1.

[Cato]

Why ?

Because 'justice' is not served. Jesus is punished for sins he did not commit (namely, ours), while we go unpunished for sins we did commit. They cancel out nicely, don't you think?
Could this have been accomplished by natural death? That is not ruled out, because the Bible does not rule it out. An execution is stronger thematically. It mirrors our own situation. That's as far as I can go.

Explain exactly how god/jesus dying redeems us ?

We break the inherent law of goodness in nature. We deserve punishment (the way a murderer does). Jesus takes our place. Thus, we do not have to die. And God can remain perfectly just (since letting us go scot free he would be unjust). But God/Jesus is more powerful than death, as Acts 2:24 says, "But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him."
Jesus' new life gives us hope that we will resurrect also.

If you want deeper answers, I suggest you delve into the Bible itself. To wonder if Jesus could have died another way is a sidestep topic. He died the way he did, and that saves us from punishment. Can you think of a better way he could have died? Or let's put your argument another way:

I have a sailboat. Could I sail it without sails? Maybe. You could challenge me to sail it mastless. But which is better, with sails or without sails?

Even if we concluded Jesus could have died in a less impactful way, what would that accomplish? Atheists-0. Theists-0. Idle chatter-1.

This is exactly why your code is fucked on arrival. What did 'I' do to deserve punishment? If I am guilty of any sin as a baby it was the fact that after proper gestation I had the temerity to force myself, at much pain to my host (my mother), through an orifice that only nine months before was barely able to accomodate the significantly smaller diameter of my father's prick.

For you to come along now and say that the moment of my birth was also the moment of my initial sin is preposterous. For you to suggest and demand that this moment is sinful requiring my belief in an ancient human sacrafice for its atonement is fuck all nuts.

I don't think I'm the one that needs 'saving'!!!!

[pgrimes15]

To wonder if Jesus could have died another way is a sidestep topic.

Errr . . . I thought I had chosen the topic in the OP. I just want a simple answer to the question.

You have answered that you think the method was irelevant, it was just what was around at the time. Thank you for that straight answer.

So the question should be, "Why was the execution sacrifice necessary ?"
Some of your answers seem to imply that it was overt piece of conspicuous demonstration so that the simple folk of the time would remember that Jesus suffered.
I appreciate that the result was eternal life if you believe in God, but it is still not clear to me how a human sacrifice was the only way that this could have been facilitated. After all god is omnipotent and can send everyone who ever lived to heaven over breakfast if he so desired, then send them somewhere else at tea time. What is the mechanism or method and reason that a human sacrifice made what was impossible before suddenly possible.(i.e. people going to heaven)

Despite your implication I am not trying to score points, but get a substantial and precise answer to this question, and I don't think I should need to study the bible to answer something that is at the root of the christian story.

Thanks for your thoughts though. Perhaps a Xtian forum would have a vicar or someone who can give the official line (apologies if you are a vicar !).
Do you know any good ones ?

Regards

Grimesy

[Faith No More]

Jesus is punished for sins he did not commit (namely, ours), while we go unpunished for sins we did commit. They cancel out nicely, don't you think?

No, I do not, and the concept of a deity giving out "get out of hell free" cards based simply on whether you believe he(read: his son) got nailed to a cross is ridiculous, in my opinion.

And how exactly are we going unpunished for our sins? Will we not be tossed into hell for not accepting Jesus' sacrifice because we are sinners?

[Whateverist]

I think the answer to your question is really quite simple, Mr Grimes. I think, somehow, the god of the old testament must have realized on some level what a prick he was being to the people he'd created. But in the heat of the moment his poorly developed sense of empathy kept failing to balance his wrathful, vengeful emotions. To help Him develop better empathy He had to become a man and undergo as much suffering as He Himself had been inflicting on His people. When, as Jesus, he cried out "why hath thou forsaken me" He finally realized how all His victims must have felt when He was being such a colossal dick. And that is why the God of the NT is such a nicer guy than the God of the OT.

The end.

[Drich]

Yes I get what your saying. Jesus was tortured and executed so that we may have "an idea of the cost of salvation/atonement."

This does not address what my question is.

I'll try and put it in a different way.

If the worst possible way of execution at the time was being "hung-drawn and quartered" would that be the method used to execute Jesus.
Was the "worst possible way known" chosen to make the most lasting impression on the witnesses.?

There were still Prophecies to full fill, but I do not think it would be much for God have changed them to match the death of Christ whatever the method.

If the aim was just to make an impression, couldn't something else spectacular have been done (i.e. turn the sun off for an hour - that way everyone in the world would get the message).

the sun was "turned off from the 6th to the 9th hour." and look how that has impacted you. You weren't even aware and yet you still knew of the crucifixion

Was it the execution that was the essential element - regardless of the method - or was it the method that was the important thing? To both these questions I ask why?

Yes Jesus HAD to die. Why? Because we are told God established the standard that any and all sin deserves Death. Righteousness demands that someone die for the sins committed against God. Jesus was that death for those who accept the offering made on their behalf.