Why was the crucifixion necessary ?

[Drich]

Why do you think God should act in this way? I noticed that you said all would know God, why wouldn't all love God?

From my experience, love comes after knowledge that the person being loved exists.

So it is not possiable for babies and small children to love their mothers? After all isn't self awareness a requirement before conscious awareness of others is possiable?

Or Maybe God requirement of love goes beyond the eros(desire based love) you are refering to.

[kılıç_mehmet]

Here is another question I asked at an Alpha course to which I received no answer - not even an unconvincing one!

I asked why there had to be a crucifixion. Couldn't Jesus have come to earth, done the miracles, sermon on the mount, last supper etc. then said “The Romans are coming to arrest me but they will not find me – I am going to my father - be nice to each other and I will return one day (as he ascended into Heaven).” that way you could still have the condition that you have to believe in Jesus but cut out the nasty crucifixion bit. The answer from the vicar was that the crucifixion was the heart of being a Christian. That seemed like circular logic to me – we are Christians because of the crucifixion and the crucifixion made us Christians.

Perhaps another one for the theists on this forum.

Regards

Grimesy

Well, the point is this.
In Judaism, you have to sacrifice an animal for each and every sin.
Well, Christian doctrine holds that every man is born sinful, and for that reason, God has chosen to absolve mankind by making an ultimate sacrifice, by sacrificing his son his Jesus.

As you may know, he is always referred to as "the sacrificial lamb" and etc.

[Drich]

I'm looking for whatever evidence you think you have of your "god." I'm not fussy. Lay it on the table and let's have a look at it.

If you have any, that is.

My evidence was tailored for me. I needed to see: X, Y and Z God showed me X, Y and Z. I am asking you what you believe X, Y, and Z is to you.

Maybe I can help you find it, or at least show you where to look. that said if you have it in you heart nothing will be good enough unless someone tells you it is good enough for you to believe (Like a scientist or someone just way smarter than you or me) then their is nothing I can do. Because you have place yoour 'faith' in your peers and nothing God will do for you will be good enough. If that is the case then I will not waist my time trying to break your faith in your fellow man.

We have all been given this life to make a choice if you choose your fellow man then who am i to say you made the wrong choice.

So bottom line. either you know what you are looking for or you know you have found what you are looking for. If you think you've found it then i will not try and take it from you.

[Tobie]

I'm looking for whatever evidence you think you have of your "god." I'm not fussy. Lay it on the table and let's have a look at it.

If you have any, that is.

My evidence was tailored for me. I needed to see: X, Y and Z God showed me X, Y and Z. I am asking you what you believe X, Y, and Z is to you.

Maybe I can help you find it, or at least show you where to look. that said if you have it in you heart nothing will be good enough unless someone tells you it is good enough for you to believe (Like a scientist or someone just way smarter than you or me) then their is nothing I can do. Because you have place yoour 'faith' in your peers and nothing God will do for you will be good enough. If that is the case then I will not waist my time trying to break your faith in your fellow man.

We have all been given this life to make a choice if you choose your fellow man then who am i to say you made the wrong choice.

So bottom line. either you know what you are looking for or you know you have found what you are looking for. If you think you've found it then i will not try and take it from you.

Yeah, that isn't evidence. Evidence is not subjective (in science). Also, what kind of evidence is it if you can't share it with other people? Your god's shot himself in the foot if he gives you evidence that you alone can use, not letting you use it to convert others.

[Jackalope]

My evidence was tailored for me. I needed to see: X, Y and Z God showed me X, Y and Z. I am asking you what you believe X, Y, and Z is to you.

Sounds like you got conned.

You really don't get the whole intellectual honesty thing, do you?

Presenting someone with evidence tailored to support their bias is the antithesis of intellectual honesty.

...which is why people have been urging you from the day you arrived here, to present what you have. I note that you've refused to do so, which in my estimation places you on the spectrum somewhere between charlatan and troll, if unintentional.

[The Grand Nudger]

Well, it appears that god's rules are shit Drich. It seems as though even you don't want to be a scape-goater. Thankfully, "god's rules" are as imaginary as "god".

(btw, do you honestly think that there are no people in the world that would still refuse to bend the knee to your cunt of a god -in truth simply a proxy- in a face to face meeting? Self preservation? From what? How? Aren't you always on about "a seperation from god"..wtf am I supposed to be preserving myself from all of a sudden, and how could I possibly preserve myself in the face of a god who willed my destruction? Is it time for thinly veiled references to hellfire and destruction already? You haven't thought this through.......)

We have all been given this life to make a choice if you choose your fellow man then who am i to say you made the wrong choice.

Who the fuck indeed? Just what have you been doing here these past few weeks then, eh?

[Drich]

My evidence was tailored for me. I needed to see: X, Y and Z God showed me X, Y and Z. I am asking you what you believe X, Y, and Z is to you.

Maybe I can help you find it, or at least show you where to look. that said if you have it in you heart nothing will be good enough unless someone tells you it is good enough for you to believe (Like a scientist or someone just way smarter than you or me) then their is nothing I can do. Because you have place yoour 'faith' in your peers and nothing God will do for you will be good enough. If that is the case then I will not waist my time trying to break your faith in your fellow man.

We have all been given this life to make a choice if you choose your fellow man then who am i to say you made the wrong choice.

So bottom line. either you know what you are looking for or you know you have found what you are looking for. If you think you've found it then i will not try and take it from you.

Yeah, that isn't evidence. Evidence is not subjective (in science). Also, what kind of evidence is it if you can't share it with other people? Your god's shot himself in the foot if he gives you evidence that you alone can use, not letting you use it to convert others.

That's just it 'my evidence' is not meant to be used to convert others. God tailors a response to each indivisual who Ask, seeks, and knocks as outlined in luke 11. Your evidence will be far stronger to you than anything anyone could ever 'proove' in a lab. God works with us on an indivisual basis, if we want Him to. I am only able to point you in the direction to find what it is you seek. That is why i asked what it is (you) are looking for. If you do not know, then it can not be provided.

[The Grand Nudger]

I'm left to conclude that the evidence tailored for me was "no evidence". I guess god doesn't want me to believe in him. Oh well. No sweat off my sack. I mean, that's assuming you aren't speaking directly out of your ass on this one.

[Drich]

My evidence was tailored for me. I needed to see: X, Y and Z God showed me X, Y and Z. I am asking you what you believe X, Y, and Z is to you.

Sounds like you got conned.

You really don't get the whole intellectual honesty thing, do you?

Presenting someone with evidence tailored to support their bias is the antithesis of intellectual honesty.

...which is why people have been urging you from the day you arrived here, to present what you have. I note that you've refused to do so, which in my estimation places you on the spectrum somewhere between charlatan and troll, if unintentional.

Perhaps the problem is what you considered to be 'intelectually honest.' For it sounds like you are asserting that 'intelectual honesty' is nothing more than a group concensus. That no one is allowed to think outside of what 'the group' agrees upon. How honest is this? especially if 'the group' has it out for God? If 'the group' says their is no God then nothing that can be brought to the group would be considered now would it?

True intelectual honesty does not approach a situation with arguement to the contary, or any preconceived notions as to the reason a given experience will fail. Even so this is what you have done repeatly, with little to no consideration to anything outside of what you are willing to argue. then laughably you want to preach a sermon of intelectual honesty. (Me thinks the 'atheist' protest too much.) It sounds to me like you are projecting you personal failings onto me. Otherwise to be 'Intelectually Honest' one must research and test the waters for himself, not to think as 'the group' tells you to think.

---

Well, it appears that god's rules are shit Drich. It seems as though even you don't want to be a scape-goater. Thankfully, "god's rules" are as imaginary as "god".

(btw, do you honestly think that there are no people in the world that would still refuse to bend the knee to your cunt of a god -in truth simply a proxy- in a face to face meeting? Self preservation? From what? How? Aren't you always on about "a seperation from god"..wtf am I supposed to be preserving myself from all of a sudden, and how could I possibly preserve myself in the face of a god who willed my destruction? Is it time for thinly veiled references to hellfire and destruction already? You haven't thought this through.......)

We have all been given this life to make a choice if you choose your fellow man then who am i to say you made the wrong choice.

Who the fuck indeed? Just what have you been doing here these past few weeks then, eh?

care to answer the same question? Or is hyprocrisy not a character failing without "God's law" to point it out to you?

[The Grand Nudger]

Yet another example of precisely the intellectual dishonesty you are hoping to deflect. Many have tested the waters, they have not found what you have found. You have been made aware of this, repeatedly.

"Just be a christian and you'll get the evidence you need to be a christian"

Whats that Drich, did I come seek you out with the "good word"? Did I knock on your door? Am I at your bible study helping you clear up the misconceptions you have with science? Thought not asshole.