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RE: Why must Christian apologists tell lies?
August 30, 2012 at 1:32 pm
(August 30, 2012 at 1:22 pm)CliveStaples Wrote: Being right means never having to say you're wrong. Shouldn't the people who think religion is foolish be interested in good apologetics--good defenses of religious belief?
I'm very interested, that's why I'm so disappointed with never seeing any.........
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Why must Christian apologists tell lies?
August 30, 2012 at 5:03 pm
(August 28, 2012 at 3:51 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: GreneKnight, you keep mentioning belief is cultural. Do you believe somehow you have scent of the truth through your cultural experience? If not, then why do you believe?
Sorry, MysticKnight, I didn't see your post. I must have overlooked it. I believe because I was brought up in a Christian environment. I must have said this elsewhere and in many places - if I were born in a Muslim background, I should be a Muslim today.
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RE: Why must Christian apologists tell lies?
August 30, 2012 at 5:04 pm
You probably would be, but that doesn't mean that you should be.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Why must Christian apologists tell lies?
August 30, 2012 at 5:10 pm
(August 30, 2012 at 5:04 pm)Rhythm Wrote: You probably would be, but that doesn't mean that you should be.
There's no "should" here. You look around you and it's the same the world over.
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RE: Why must Christian apologists tell lies?
August 30, 2012 at 5:18 pm
(August 30, 2012 at 1:29 pm)DeistPaladin Wrote: If religion were right, there would be no need for apologetics.
Hmm. I don't see why that's true; just because something is true doesn't mean that it's obviously true.
Quote:Apologetics is not the art of searching for the truth. Apologetics is the art of taking a preconceived ideology and looking for reasons to believe it.
From wikipedia, which isn't necessarily the most reliable source:
Christian apologetics is a field of Christian theology that aims to present a rational basis for the Christian faith, to defend the faith against objections and misrepresentation, and to expose error within other religions and world views.
If apologetics is about defending Christianity against objections, it includes defending Christianity against the objection "A person searching for truth would not end up a Christian".
“The truth of our faith becomes a matter of ridicule among the infidels if any Catholic, not gifted with the necessary scientific learning, presents as dogma what scientific scrutiny shows to be false.”
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RE: Why must Christian apologists tell lies?
August 30, 2012 at 5:21 pm
That should be incredibly easy to defend against, all you would have to do is demonstrate some measure of truth in christianity.
Should I hold my breath?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Why must Christian apologists tell lies?
August 30, 2012 at 5:31 pm
(August 30, 2012 at 5:21 pm)Rhythm Wrote: That should be incredibly easy to defend against, all you would have to do is demonstrate some measure of truth in christianity.
Should I hold my breath?
This is confusing, for a few reasons.
First, because it doesn't make any sense to challenge me to engage in apologetics. I'm not an apologist, I've never said that I think there's good apologetic arguments--I certainly never made such a claim in this thread--and this thread is about the honesty of Christian apologists. It would be off-topic to start debating whether there is a good Christian defense against your particular objection.
Second, proving "There is some measure of truth in Christianity" is insufficient to defend against the objection, "A person seeking truth would not end up a Christian." Perhaps some competing and incompatible belief system--say, Buddhism, or secular humanism--has even more truth than Christianity.
“The truth of our faith becomes a matter of ridicule among the infidels if any Catholic, not gifted with the necessary scientific learning, presents as dogma what scientific scrutiny shows to be false.”
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RE: Why must Christian apologists tell lies?
August 30, 2012 at 6:05 pm
(This post was last modified: August 30, 2012 at 6:08 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Are we invoking "truthiness"? Boy I sure hope so. LOL, Clive, please don't ever feel that I'm challenging you, personally, to do anything. I'm not. I'm only reminding you (and anyone interested) of the silliness of your responses. This one included.
You don't feel that demonstrating a measure of truth would be a successful defense of the objection "anyone seeking truth would not end up a christian"? I think it would be pretty god-damned strong myself. Sure, they may end up a buddhist, or a secular humanist, but so long as there's some truth to christianity a person seeking truth could very well end up christian. The varying levels of "truthiness" of any two competing systems don't seem to preclude one from finding oneself in one or the other, ultimately, wouldn't you agree? Maybe if they were searching for "the most truth" (now that you've invoked varying degrees of truth I get to say that..don't I?) they wouldn't end up a christian - assuming there was more truth in buddhism.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Why must Christian apologists tell lies?
August 30, 2012 at 6:25 pm
(This post was last modified: August 30, 2012 at 6:26 pm by DeistPaladin.)
(August 30, 2012 at 5:18 pm)CliveStaples Wrote: Hmm. I don't see why that's true; just because something is true doesn't mean that it's obviously true.
Because if Christianity were true, it would be proven by science and history.
Quote:Christian apologetics is a field of Christian theology that aims to present a rational basis for the Christian faith, to defend the faith against objections and misrepresentation, and to expose error within other religions and world views.
Exactly. You start with the Christian faith and try to present a "rational basis" for it. However, since you started with the conclusion and then work your way to it, it is highly flawed reasoning at best.
This is like "aiming to present a rational basis for a War with Saddam's Iraq, to defend that policy against objection and to expose error within other policy options."
If this is your aim, you WILL find reasons to go to war with Saddam's Iraq. They will be poor reasons. They will stand a good chance of leading you astray. However, you will find ways to justify the conclusion you already made before the search began. Such is the nature of confirmation bias, cherry picking, special pleading and other logical fallacies likely to be used.
Furthermore, the entire practice is inherently dishonest. Apologetics claims to be pursuing a "rational basis" to believe something but the belief is already established before the evidence or arguments are examined. This is not rational. This is inherently fallacious.
Dishonesty on top of fallacy.
Quote: If apologetics is about defending Christianity against objections, it includes defending Christianity against the objection "A person searching for truth would not end up a Christian".
A person who is honestly searching for the truth starts with the admission "I don't know". Only by admitting you don't know can you be open to wherever the evidence leads you.
The person who is dishonest about his or her intentions to find the truth starts with the conclusion and selectively looks for reasons to believe it.
Atheist Forums Hall of Shame:
"The trinity can be equated to having your cake and eating it too."
... -Lucent, trying to defend the Trinity concept
"(Yahweh's) actions are good because (Yahweh) is the ultimate standard of goodness. That’s not begging the question"
... -Statler Waldorf, Christian apologist
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RE: Why must Christian apologists tell lies?
August 30, 2012 at 8:17 pm
Quote:DeistPaladin Wrote: If religion were right, there would be no need for apologetics.
Well,perhaps not for religious apologetics,but the word 'apologist' only means a person who defends. The arcane art would survive among politicians, lawyers, and various other members of the criminal classes. 
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