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(September 6, 2012 at 3:50 pm)discordianpope Wrote: Yeah, I was like totally wrong and a sneaky goalpost mover for thinking that we were talking about moral oughts and not instrumental oughts in a frickin discussion of morality.
As stated before, I see no functional distinction between the two.
(September 6, 2012 at 3:50 pm)discordianpope Wrote: Yeah it would. But they don't. It's the is-ought problem. You know, that thing Hume talked about. You can not get evaluative conclusions from purely factual premises.
And why not? Both philosophy and science have come a long way since Hume.
(September 6, 2012 at 3:50 pm)discordianpope Wrote: Jebus Christ! I have explained why they don't dissolve the is-ought problem within their scope because it isn't an is ought problem! Hume wasn't talking about instrumental oughts.
He was talking about is-ought as applied to morality. I saw nothing in his arguments that it cannot be similarly applied in other fields.
(September 6, 2012 at 3:50 pm)discordianpope Wrote: As for your blind faith that science will find a solution even though you don't know how it will be done, well.... I'm not a fan of blind faith.
To be honest, I don't think science would find the solution to the ethical problems. That's because I see ethics as a part of philosophy - not science. So, while it'd be informed by science, it wouldn't necessarily be determined by it. However, I still don't think we should rule the possibilities presented by the science of morality either.
1) Everyone gets their morals from their parents or caregivers.
2) Any other morality you may develop in life comes from your own subjective experience.
3) Never again claim that morality comes from the Bible.... the book that says it's ok to offer you daughter to a bunch of strangers who want to have a chat with some other stranger that you just took into your home as a guest.... the book that says it's ok to wipe out the people of an entire kingdom just because they don't believe in the same deity.... the book that claims a person should die if they work on the holy day.... etc...etc...etc...
September 6, 2012 at 5:46 pm (This post was last modified: September 6, 2012 at 5:47 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
(September 6, 2012 at 4:10 pm)genkaus Wrote: To be honest, I don't think science would find the solution to the ethical problems. That's because I see ethics as a part of philosophy - not science. So, while it'd be informed by science, it wouldn't necessarily be determined by it. However, I still don't think we should rule the possibilities presented by the science of morality either.
Rgr this. Science - great at quantifying and explaining things. Proclamations of morality? Maybe not.
It may help us to decide why we might want to do this or that (goal driven) or what the effect of this or that may be (risk management) but in the end, the hammer will most likely fall from some other angle (assuming that particular hammer ever ends up falling at all).
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
September 7, 2012 at 1:50 am (This post was last modified: September 7, 2012 at 1:53 am by Godscreated.)
(September 6, 2012 at 8:19 am)greneknight Wrote:
(September 6, 2012 at 12:43 am)Godschild Wrote:
Yeah, yeah ducking out aren't you.
I'm ready anytime you are, so bring it on.
You might be a fine and faithful child of Holy Church and your Archbishop might be as well, but if he believes as you do then both of you are not Christians. To bad you believe your authority comes from a simple man and a building. Mine however is a gift from the Heavenly Father, the One on High, the omniscient God of creation.
I rely on the Word of God not a human, God is truth, man is nothing more than opinion when we do not listen to the omniscient God. By the way, again no, I'm saying without a doubt that you are as deceptive as Satan and I find that he probably has you firmly in his control, read and study scripture and you will find out what I say is true.
We will do it right here I have no problem with arguing my points, and I've already shown you my weapons of choice, my sword has been sharpened and is ready.
Anyway, my debate with a Christian in Christian Forums has been approved. It's a formal debate but unfortunately, it will be heavily moderated (typical fundy fear). I will be showing that the Bible and Christianity tell us quite clearly that there is NO objective morality. For my New Testament, I will be using the Nestle Greek text. Oh, you guys don't read Koine Greek and you call yourselves Christians who love the Bible? How disgraceful!
I knew you were going to take a dive under the round table, tell us how it feels. No moderation will be needed here, that is as long as we obey the rules, you've broken one I get nailed for all the time.
(September 6, 2012 at 5:23 pm)pocaracas Wrote: 1) Everyone gets their morals from their parents or caregivers.
2) Any other morality you may develop in life comes from your own subjective experience.
3) Never again claim that morality comes from the Bible.... the book that says it's ok to offer you daughter to a bunch of strangers who want to have a chat with some other stranger that you just took into your home as a guest.... the book that says it's ok to wipe out the people of an entire kingdom just because they don't believe in the same deity.... the book that claims a person should die if they work on the holy day.... etc...etc...etc...
Man how pathetic, you do not know any of the stories in scripture. Please learn before you start putting down the scriptures.
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
(September 6, 2012 at 5:23 pm)pocaracas Wrote: 1) Everyone gets their morals from their parents or caregivers.
2) Any other morality you may develop in life comes from your own subjective experience.
3) Never again claim that morality comes from the Bible.... the book that says it's ok to offer you daughter to a bunch of strangers who want to have a chat with some other stranger that you just took into your home as a guest.... the book that says it's ok to wipe out the people of an entire kingdom just because they don't believe in the same deity.... the book that claims a person should die if they work on the holy day.... etc...etc...etc...
Man how pathetic, you do not know any of the stories in scripture. Please learn before you start putting down the scriptures.
They're very fond of selected bits of Leviticus and Deuteronomy, though. Some might even say a little too fond.
At the age of five, Skagra decided emphatically that God did not exist. This revelation tends to make most people in the universe who have it react in one of two ways - with relief or with despair. Only Skagra responded to it by thinking, 'Wait a second. That means there's a situation vacant.'
(September 7, 2012 at 4:32 pm)Stimbo Wrote: They're very fond of selected bits of Leviticus and Deuteronomy, though. Some might even say a little too fond.
Yeah, and that has always puzzled me. Christians are also very fond of claiming Jesus abrogated 603 of the 613 commandments which make up Mosaic law (ignoring Jesus' admonition given in Matthew 5:17-19)
Naturally, Christian apologists claim that verse is one of many in the Bible which doesn't mean what it says. That's the really handy thing about an authority based belief system; people will believe what ever they are told,no mater how absurd.
(September 7, 2012 at 4:32 pm)Stimbo Wrote: They're very fond of selected bits of Leviticus and Deuteronomy, though. Some might even say a little too fond.
Yeah, and that has always puzzled me. Christians are also very fond of claiming Jesus abrogated 603 of the 613 commandments which make up Mosaic law (ignoring Jesus' admonition given in Matthew 5:17-19)
Naturally, Christian apologists claim that verse is one of many in the Bible which doesn't mean what it says. That's the really handy thing about an authority based belief system; people will believe what ever they are told,no mater how absurd.
I see it differently. Of course Jesus, that wild apocalyptic Zionist zealot would have insisted on all Christians becoming Jews first and obeying every jot and tittle of the law of Moses as he said in the Sermon on the Mount but thank goodness, St Paul came into the picture and changed the religion of Jesus. Imagine if we have to follow those crazy commandments in Mosaic law!! There's one about cutting off the hand of the woman if two men were to fight and she touches one man's groin. I mean the writer of Moses' Law must have been drunk when he wrote that.
I'm glad the church left out that part of the law. To follow the law would be to allow desert barbarism into our wonderful English cathedrals. No, we can't have that.
September 8, 2012 at 4:02 am (This post was last modified: September 8, 2012 at 4:06 am by Godscreated.)
(September 7, 2012 at 5:36 am)pocaracas Wrote:
(September 7, 2012 at 1:50 am)Godschild Wrote: Man how pathetic, you do not know any of the stories in scripture. Please learn before you start putting down the scriptures.
I don't know why, but some people seem to be under the impression that "the bible" starts at the book of Matthew, instead of Genesis.
Your ect. just shows how little you pay attention to what scripture says, why don't you use some reasoning instead of listening to people who care only to destroy Christianity.
(September 6, 2012 at 8:46 am)Faith No More Wrote:
Godschild Wrote:To bad you believe your authority comes from a simple man and a building. Mine however is a gift from the Heavenly Father, the One on High, the omniscient God of creation.
On whose authority have you determined that you have received a gift from the "Heavenly Father." It wouldn't be from a simple man, would it?
It's written in scripture, don't you read scripture, it's there everywhere if you will only look.
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
September 8, 2012 at 4:39 am (This post was last modified: September 8, 2012 at 4:42 am by pocaracas.)
(September 8, 2012 at 4:02 am)Godschild Wrote: Your ect. just shows how little you pay attention to what scripture says, why don't you use some reasoning instead of listening to people who care only to destroy Christianity.
Yeah, right... define "scripture".
King James is not good enough for you?
http://www.bartleby.com/108/05/22.html Wrote:¶ If a man be found lying with a woman married to a husband, then they shall both of them die, both the man that lay with the woman, and the woman: so shalt thou put away evil from Israel.
23 ¶ If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto a husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her;
24 then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbor's wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you.
25 ¶ But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her; then the man only that lay with her shall die:
26 but unto the damsel thou shalt do nothing; there is in the damsel no sin worthy of death: for as when a man riseth against his neighbor, and slayeth him, even so is this matter:
27 for he found her in the field, and the betrothed damsel cried, and there was none to save her.
28 ¶ If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;
29 then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days. Ex. 22.16, 17
I find it curious how you seem to be getting into a corner.
I'm ready anytime you are, so bring it on.
