Our server costs ~$56 per month to run. Please consider donating or becoming a Patron to help keep the site running. Help us gain new members by following us on Twitter and liking our page on Facebook!
Current time: March 28, 2024, 10:28 am

Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Maybe I never was a Christian?
#51
RE: Maybe I never was a Christian?
(September 22, 2012 at 7:58 am)RaphielDrake Wrote:
(September 21, 2012 at 3:07 pm)Reasonable_Jeff Wrote: If you are correct in your worldview, then yes. Christians are to be pitied for our foolishness.

If I am correct, it means I get to spend eternity in heaven with Jesus my Savior and Redeemer.

Wagering this short life seems like a pretty safe bet when the stakes are eternity.

You left out the part that if your baseless assumption is false, and there is nothing to indicate it is not, then you will waste the only life you have and miss opportunities all under the illusion that you have some special access to a trans-dimensional plane where you live for ever and have your every need catered for. Have you ever actually said that aloud? Because it sounds like the very definition of wishful thinking.
Regardless of how short it is, your life will be wasted under the guise of a fantasy.

You've also missed the third option, what if we're both wrong? Man, Zeus is going to be pissed....
Reply
#52
RE: Maybe I never was a Christian?
(September 14, 2012 at 3:13 am)Polaris Wrote: Were you ever filled with the Holy Spirit? If not, then you were never a Christian.

How can you tell if you or someone else is filled with the holy spirit?
[Image: generic_sig.jpg]
Reply
#53
RE: Maybe I never was a Christian?
The question is just an internal christian argument because they have not set up the parameters of their claims. One one side you have holy spirit filled my soul, on the other you have omnipresence. Each sect wants to claim special connection, but in doing so it denies the claim of omnipresence, because if it is not in one place it can not be everywhere. So they fight over the label: 'I am more of a christian because' and naturally the claims get sillier. Watch this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlIXn0r0A...re=related
Reply
#54
RE: Maybe I never was a Christian?
(September 22, 2012 at 7:58 am)RaphielDrake Wrote: You left out the part that if your baseless assumption is false, and there is nothing to indicate it is not

I am not trying to prove anything in this thread, I'm simply wanting to correct wrong beliefs in regard to Christian doctrines.

(September 22, 2012 at 7:58 am)RaphielDrake Wrote: , then you will waste the only life you have and miss opportunities all

I don't feel like I'm wasting my life. I have a steady job, a wife, we just bought a house recently, we now have a 5 month old little girl we named Allison, and we have met people that have quickly become a second family at our church. It's been a great life.

What opportunities am I missing?

(September 22, 2012 at 7:58 am)RaphielDrake Wrote: under the illusion that you have some special access to a trans-dimensional plane where you live for ever and have your every need catered for. Have you ever actually said that aloud? Because it sounds like the very definition of wishful thinking.

It does sound crazy, but technically that's not what Christian believe heaven is. Your description of heaven makes it sound like if you get there God is going to serve you for eternity. Christians believe that heaven is bliss simply because you are in the near presence of the creator of all reality. Heaven is great because God is there, not because I am waited on and catered to as if I were some sort of god. The joy of heaven is that I can worship God and give Him glory for all of eternity.

(September 22, 2012 at 7:58 am)RaphielDrake Wrote: Its also a form of wishful thinking religion is all too happy to move the goal posts to humour. First the soul is an actual organ in the body, then after the first autopsy its suddenly "metaphysical". We're centre of the universe... oh fuck, nevermind. The Bible is literal, oh wait... no turns out thats impossible... ok its metaphorical. Can someone listen to this shameless bartering without realizing they are listening to tricksters redefining the parameters of their illusion to better fool their audience?

These are great points and very true. Great critique!

(September 22, 2012 at 7:58 am)RaphielDrake Wrote: Regardless of how short it is, your life will be wasted under the guise of a fantasy.

If your worldview is correct then life itself seems to be a waste. No meaning, no purpose, we simply...are.

The Christian worldview gives purpose and meaning to life. You could even argue that even if atheism is true beyond a shadow of a doubt, a life lived under Christian beliefs could be seen to be very fulfilling because of the hope that it instills.
Reply
#55
RE: Maybe I never was a Christian?
(September 22, 2012 at 10:05 am)Reasonable_Jeff Wrote: I am not trying to prove anything in this thread, I'm simply wanting to correct wrong beliefs in regard to Christian doctrines.
Well, you're trying to prove -something- then, aren't you? Do you imagine that christian doctrine is some kind of monolith whereby your reference of your own beliefs will correct the beliefs of others? Back to bare assertions again. All you can hope to say is "the christian denomination I follow doesn't hold that as doctrine". No worries, there are tens of thousands more to choose from.

Quote:It does sound crazy, but technically that's not what Christian believe heaven is. Your description of heaven makes it sound like if you get there God is going to serve you for eternity. Christians believe that heaven is bliss simply because you are in the near presence of the creator of all reality. Heaven is great because God is there, not because I am waited on and catered to as if I were some sort of god. The joy of heaven is that I can worship God and give Him glory for all of eternity.
That sounds less crazy, equally crazy, more crazy...? I'm not sure what you were hoping to establish with this one. You feel that bliss will be worshipping a god for eternity, others (read:other christians) hold a much more elaborate (and dare I say,: interesting) view of the afterlife.

Quote:If your worldview is correct then life itself seems to be a waste. No meaning, no purpose, we simply...are.
Didn't you just post an apology for this sort of shit?

Quote:The Christian worldview gives purpose and meaning to life. You could even argue that even if atheism is true beyond a shadow of a doubt, a life lived under Christian beliefs could be seen to be very fulfilling because of the hope that it instills.
LOL....

-You- give meaning to your life by -referring- to some christian worldview (whatever that may be). You mentioned that you were not always a believer in gods (IIRC). Was your life purposeless then Jeff? Did it lack meaning? What changed? If you feel that one bare assertion (god exists, and we to worship him) is sufficient to grant purpose or meaning to life than any other would do equally as well...wouldn't it?

Christianity doesn't fill me with hope, it fills me with disgust.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
#56
RE: Maybe I never was a Christian?
(September 21, 2012 at 1:48 pm)Reasonable_Jeff Wrote: There are actually different perspectives on this within Christianity. Personally I believe that newborns, aborted babies etc go to heaven.

So then, wouldn't it be better for all Christians to abort all fetuses to assure, with 100% certainty, that they will go to Heaven?

Isn't it a huge gamble to let them be born and take all those chances that they will end up being tortured for eternity for some finite crime? After all, this measly 70 - 80 years we spend on Earth is just a quick stop over on the way to Heaven, right?

With your attitude, it seems kind of selfish to bring children into this 'sinful' world, when you could easily assure they go to Heaven.

.

You'd believe if you just opened your heart" is a terrible argument for religion. It's basically saying, "If you bias yourself enough, you can convince yourself that this is true." If religion were true, people wouldn't need faith to believe it -- it would be supported by good evidence.
Reply
#57
RE: Maybe I never was a Christian?
(September 22, 2012 at 12:26 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Well, you're trying to prove -something- then, aren't you? Do you imagine that christian doctrine is some kind of monolith whereby your reference of your own beliefs will correct the beliefs of others? Back to bare assertions again. All you can hope to say is "the christian denomination I follow doesn't hold that as doctrine". No worries, there are tens of thousands more to choose from.

Fair, good point. I should have been more specific. Catholics and Protestants have very different doctrines while they are both considered Christian.

(September 22, 2012 at 12:26 pm)Rhythm Wrote: I'm not sure what you were hoping to establish with this one.

I was trying to forth a more Biblical view of what heaven will be like....I wasn't trying to make it sound "less silly."

(September 22, 2012 at 12:26 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Didn't you just post an apology for this sort of shit?

I was apologizing for the way that I've treated atheists/agnostics. I have been cruel to them in the past.

This assertion I made was one that atheists themselves have stated.

Richard Dawkins says, “there is at bottom no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but pointless indifference. . . . We are machines for propagating DNA. . . . It is every living object’s sole reason for being”?

Richard Dawkins, River out of Eden: a Darwinian View of Life (New York: Basic Books, 1996), p. 133 and Richard Dawkins, “The Ultraviolet Garden,” Lecture 4 of 7 Royal Institution Christmas Lectures (1992)


(September 22, 2012 at 12:26 pm)Rhythm Wrote: You mentioned that you were not always a believer in gods (IIRC). Was your life purposeless then Jeff? Did it lack meaning? What changed?

My life was a continual chasing of fulfillment through cheap thrills, alcohol, drugs, sex....but each "high" was followed by an increasingly deeper "low."

It seemed meaningless....what was the point?

What changed? I had an encounter with the living God and Jesus became glorious in my eyes. Reading the Bible before seemed about as fun as reading through a dictionary....now I LOVE it!

In short, once I met Jesus my desires changed.
Reply
#58
RE: Maybe I never was a Christian?
(September 22, 2012 at 1:19 pm)Reasonable_Jeff Wrote: [...] cheap thrills, alcohol, drugs, [...] I had an encounter with the living God and Jesus became glorious in my eyes. [...]
In short, once I met Jesus my desires changed.
Cherry picking at its best!
Reply
#59
RE: Maybe I never was a Christian?
(September 22, 2012 at 12:52 pm)Simon Moon Wrote: So then, wouldn't it be better for all Christians to abort all fetuses to assure, with 100% certainty, that they will go to Heaven?

(September 22, 2012 at 12:52 pm)Simon Moon Wrote: With your attitude, it seems kind of selfish to bring children into this 'sinful' world, when you could easily assure they go to Heaven.

That is a great question!

However, there is a rule that is used when interpreting scripture. Always use what's clear to interpret is what unclear.

A clear teaching of the Bible is to love your neighbor. It is unclear what happens to babies who die.

It would be wrong to use the unclear to interpret the clear. I.e. I think that babies go to heaven when they die so I should overlook these clear teachings and start murdering babies.
Reply
#60
RE: Maybe I never was a Christian?
(September 22, 2012 at 1:19 pm)Reasonable_Jeff Wrote: I was trying to forth a more Biblical view of what heaven will be like....I wasn't trying to make it sound "less silly."
If only the bible were an authority...on anything...lol.


Quote:I was apologizing for the way that I've treated atheists/agnostics. I have been cruel to them in the past.

This assertion I made was one that atheists themselves have stated.

Richard Dawkins says, “there is at bottom no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but pointless indifference. . . . We are machines for propagating DNA. . . . It is every living object’s sole reason for being”?

Richard Dawkins, River out of Eden: a Darwinian View of Life (New York: Basic Books, 1996), p. 133 and Richard Dawkins, “The Ultraviolet Garden,” Lecture 4 of 7 Royal Institution Christmas Lectures (1992)

And? Is that the "atheist worldview". You're comfortable quote mining for something you feel is objectionable (from one individual) and then ascribing to that the moniker "your worldview"( to another individual or group of individuals)? Good for you.

Quote:My life was a continual chasing of fulfillment through cheap thrills, alcohol, drugs, sex....but each "high" was followed by an increasingly deeper "low."

It seemed meaningless....what was the point?

Sounds like your life blew, ah well, mine doesn't. I have more purpose and meaning than I'm capable of fulfilling currently.

Quote:What changed? I had an encounter with the living God and Jesus became glorious in my eyes. Reading the Bible before seemed about as fun as reading through a dictionary....now I LOVE it!

In short, once I met Jesus my desires changed.
Excellent, so there's that bare assertion that you feel is good enough to suddenly fill your meaningless, pointless life with meaning and purpose. I go with waffles -voila- my life is full of both purpose and meaning.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply



Possibly Related Threads...
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  How do I deal with the belief that maybe... Just maybe... God exists and I'm... Gentle_Idiot 75 5941 November 23, 2022 at 5:34 pm
Last Post: The Grand Nudger
  Maybe there's something like a god out there. Ryantology 38 2879 June 5, 2020 at 8:42 am
Last Post: The Grand Nudger
  The Never-Addressed reasons that lead me to Atheism Chimera7 26 3544 August 20, 2018 at 10:10 pm
Last Post: Minimalist
  Never had that happen before Astonished 6 2467 August 11, 2017 at 5:21 pm
Last Post: Brian37
  Those who never believed in a God Der/die AtheistIn 28 5088 July 30, 2017 at 4:18 pm
Last Post: Shell B
  Atheists who have never read common atheist literature ComradeMeow 68 9629 March 2, 2017 at 4:46 pm
Last Post: Cephus
  What if christianity never existed ? Torin 80 7416 September 14, 2016 at 3:24 pm
Last Post: abaris
  God of the gaps... maybe? Exian 18 2392 February 7, 2016 at 4:33 am
Last Post: robvalue
  Never Grow Tired Rhondazvous 12 2713 May 22, 2015 at 10:22 am
Last Post: Angrboda
  It is never Ok, OP/ED Brian37 24 5115 February 15, 2015 at 5:51 am
Last Post: jesus_wept



Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)