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(October 11, 2012 at 2:21 pm)ronedee Wrote: And POCARACAS.... If you read my original posts you would know what I actually said.
Oh really? Sorry if I missed it.
Let's see what you wrote then:
post1:
(October 8, 2012 at 1:36 am)ronedee Wrote: Hello all !
After reading the lively banter back and forth I now know how a thread could be 4 years old and neither side satisfied with "any" answer! LOL!
The simple answer? (If possible)... is that God had to break his own curse against man.
Believing that God exists is based mostly (and obviously) on Faith! All others need logic (or a weapon like in the old days! LOL). And.... it "will" make more sense once you sort all the facts out!
First...a modest blurp about me! I am (gulp!) Catholic which will put me at odds with not only the A's, but most Christian groups! Why i am, is not important to anyone but me so I won't bother. I was away from my faith for several years, and came back through an unusual experience that again only means something to me!
My brother and father became Atheist's. So I've had many, MANY argu....eh..... I mean discussions about religion over the decades! And over the years I feel a bit responsible for a few conversions through logic and (more importantly) my Faith. Not so many "A's to Christ"...but at least to Agnostic! Which was monumental in a few instances. I point to my dad, kid brother, and my best friend who is now a Christian!
I'm NOT expecting to turn this place on fire (pardon the expression), nor convert anyone! Just to throw out a few ideas, interesting facts and observations for debate and conversations!
It's kind of late in my neck 'o the woods so I'll be back to layout the/my "logical" reasoning tomorrow...."if" anyone is interested! Viewing some of the posts here, I'm sure there are a few/thousand who could give a rats ass...but I'm sure it will be great fodder/target practice for dem-dare A's!
SYS! Ron
You say hi and hope for some debating.
Post 2:
(October 8, 2012 at 4:02 pm)ronedee Wrote:
(October 8, 2012 at 9:48 am)Rhythm Wrote: What, in your estimation, was monumental about selling ghost stories to your loved ones? That you pulled it off?
By NOT using Ghost stories...for ONE!
Rhythm & Guys!...I have a party going on @ my place at the moment and I'll be back later for more in-depth...
But, I'm wondering if I should start a new thread rather than pirate this one? This will probably take some time to explain. And, I don't want to overwhelm the masses (aka make people puke!) ...all at once anyway! Thanks, Ron
Nothing yet....
Post 3:
(October 9, 2012 at 12:14 am)ronedee Wrote: OK! We'll start with the Trinity: Father, Son & Holy Spirit.
...Because that IS THE REASON for our existence! There is one other than God Himself, The Son. The Holy Spirit is the Love which is personified between both Father & Son. Before you start spewing gender at me...it has nothing to do with sex, or humanness. It's about Divinity and absolute perfection! You can look at the Trinity as the perfect model Family! "IF" God indeed created us in His image, than there will also be obvious parallels in our lives to look for.
Just as we (most peeps) want to find the perfect ONE in life to love, and to have offspring to celebrate our joy together...so it is with God!
And, because the Love is so abundant in the union of the Trinity it won't be contained. Here's where we "humans" come in.
There were other "beings" created as higher life forms, called Angels. Catholics believe that all beings (human souls & angel spirits) cannot be destroyed because they are created from God. To destroy them would be to deny or kill a part of Himself!
Enter: free choice and....Hades!
The million dollar question: What joy is there in creating Robots to play with for eternity?
.....to be continued!
Finally something, but "to be continued"... I wonder when?
You claim that god, the trinity or whatever is the reason for our existence. How do arrive at that conclusion?
Oh, there are parallels between god and humans... wouldn't they also exist if god was man-made?
Oh, we want to find something perfect in life... some of us just assume perfect people don't exist and are fine with it. There's no reason to go out looking for something perfect just for the sake of there being something perfect.... Your quote sounds like wishful thinking. I'd like there to be magic and dragons and unicorns.... but do they exist?
Then you stick in angels and souls as something catholics believe in. Fine, believe it. I don't.
As far as I can see, angels and saints were incorporated into the christian mythology to accommodate pagan believers into this family.
Souls are just some immaterial thing that I associate with ghosts. Do ghosts exist? I've never seen one. I don't know of anyone who has, while completely sane. How then can anyone claim them to exist?
And your million dollar question comes to a halt at the start: who would have created those robots? The magical skydaddy? How would anyone know about that?
and "to be continued..."
Post 4:
(October 9, 2012 at 1:34 am)ronedee Wrote:
(October 9, 2012 at 12:35 am)Godschild Wrote: So if you do not see the Holy Spirit as a person of God, where do you get a trinity from. Christ did call Him another coming in My place, as if the Holy Spirit were a person, the same as the Father and Christ.
In your zest to poke holes in my statement you ignored the fact that I mentioned "personified", and "offspring". The "Holy Spirit" (not daughter, mother, child etc.) was manifested after(i.e. named order), and through (result of) The Father & Son!
Plus...as most theists know, to REALLY try to explain the complexity of the Trinity is an exercise in futility!
...like trying to explain anything to that Darkstar! All we can do is relate to the union in ways "we already know"!
I can see now that this will be an effort no matter how simple I try to make things! I'm not going to try and convince, or argue my points to anyone! Some just won't want to get it because it's at odds with everything they don't believe! That's fine.
I will reply to intelligent questions about the points I make. But I have no time to explain scripture, and theology and how it relates to my points! It's meant to be simple as can be and in common terms.
Starting to play the victim here. nothing for me to comment.
Post 5:
(October 9, 2012 at 10:49 am)ronedee Wrote:
(October 9, 2012 at 2:06 am)Godschild Wrote: I did notice the word "personified" and "offspring," that is why I asked, it seems to me that this is another way to explain GOD. Some denominations believe Christ was an angel and lifted up by the Father to be His Son. As I read scriptures the Trinity has always existed, there has never been a part of eternity that the three did not exist, to say the Holy Spirit is a part of God that was birthed so to speak means that HE was not original, that He is not eternal because He has not always existed, even if it were only for a moment. I understand what you mean about trying to explain the Trinity to anyone, it's difficult at best and may be best explained as one of the mysteries of GOD. My intentions are to understand your beliefs and to poke at them as you put it is a way of showing that we disagree up to the point of the poke, nothing more.
OK... I can understand your confusion. But it is also mine! Lets face it, the Trinity will never be explained fully until we are actually there! But, because the Holy Spirit is used in a "Ghost" or "Spirit" form sense by God it suggests that it is something else: The "Holy Spirit decended upon Jesus as a Dove, when baptised by John". And, "Jesus breathed on His disciples and they received The Holy Spirit as tongues of Fire on their heads".
That is why I used the "family" metaphor. What better way to describe a completely loving unity? I, as I'm sure many others "can" be completely happy with "just" their family unit!
Arguing with a fellow christian... nothing for me to comment.
Post 6:
(October 9, 2012 at 11:50 am)ronedee Wrote:
(October 9, 2012 at 10:55 am)Minimalist Wrote: Apparently, you don't have a lot of experience with "families."
I have 9 children!
Some joke... nothing for me to comment.
Post 7:
(October 9, 2012 at 2:27 pm)ronedee Wrote:
(October 9, 2012 at 12:39 pm)Minimalist Wrote: The sooner the current generation of jesus freaks dies out the better off we'll all be!
Hmmm...where have we heard this quote before?
Chritianity is on the rise my friend. So the opposite may be true at some point! Only difference is we'll bore you to death.
This one got you into a debate about statistics... I said all I wanted then.
Post 8:
(October 9, 2012 at 3:48 pm)ronedee Wrote:
(October 9, 2012 at 3:30 pm)Darkstar Wrote: Oh, really?
In the WORLD Holmes!
America is on the downslide because of a lack of morals. The rest of the world is looking to us as a model for what NOT to be...in just about EVERY WAY!
Continuing the previous one.... Already said everything about it.
Post 9:
(October 9, 2012 at 10:11 pm)ronedee Wrote:
I really have no problem with Atheists, unlike most of you that do with Christians. The problem I do have is with the "hate" conveyed by either side....which manifests itself in many ways.
IMO the thing most "good people" of any persuasion want is a moral compass that has been lost in our society. What was once Freedom and Liberty in one nation under God..........has become Freedom to do do whatever the f-k I want, when I want, where I want, and no one especially someone's god will take that away from me!
Translation? Chaos! Because "I" has taken the place of God!
Where do we...or worse yet, inner-city kids look in our present society for values, morals and a sense of fellowship? The movies? The internet? The family? The street corner? Really.... Is there anywhere to find it?
I'm wide open for answers, because I don't have them! The only thing I have is my Faith....and Hope that there is a place better than this rotten world we live in!
The old argument of "we need morals to prevent us from becoming some
crime crazed beasts and those morals come from god".
It is such a worn out argument that people just reply with vulgarities and expect you to catch up.
Maybe you could browse through this thread: Where do atheists get their morality from? and do try to pay attention to what atheists say, without dismissing it as nonsense before reading.
Post 10:
(October 9, 2012 at 10:21 pm)ronedee Wrote:
(October 9, 2012 at 6:30 pm)Faith No More Wrote: Perhaps that is because it is a nonsensical concept?
should we say the same about gravity?
(October 9, 2012 at 6:34 pm)Darkstar Wrote: Mystery of god=Makes no sense
The biggest mystery of god is how he could even possibly exist without the universe (infinitely less complex) existing first. Of course, one must suspend a certain amount of disbelief in order to properly enjoy a work of fiction.
Think of it this way: we = a box of rocks... and God is Einstein!
Doesn't become much clearer now?
Nonsense IS nonsense.
No comments... -.-'
Post 11:
(October 9, 2012 at 10:32 pm)ronedee Wrote:
(October 9, 2012 at 10:28 pm)Darkstar Wrote: You say you have no problems with atheists immediately before implying that we have no morals. I don't think anyone here hates christians as a whole. Some may hate christianity itself, but unless someone personally proves themself to be a bad person I won't dislike them personally. You concluded with 'the only thing I have is my faith'. Does this mean that without your faith you would be immoral? Statistics strongly suggest that religiousity doesn't make people more moral; it may actually increase crime rates on the whole. We get values from ourselves. It isn't a 'do whatever you want' world. If you can't be a good person without the fear of hell or reward of heaven, or perhaps you actually think the bible provides a good moral framework, that doesn't mean I need any of those things to be a good person.
I DON'T "IMPLY" ANYTHING! IF I WANT TO CALL YOU AN IDIOT I'LL DO IT STRAIGHT OUT!
Using CAPS is interpreted as shouting on the net.... here we start doubting your sanity. Most just made fun of you for it.... which must have flipped you even more.
Post 12:
(October 10, 2012 at 2:39 pm)ronedee Wrote: All you A's do is take everything/anything I say, or anyone with a religion says and twist it up to suit your own dispositions at the moment.
It's rather childish, and boring to "assume" everyone who is a "believer" is a clone of your worst "Christian" nightmare. And vis-vis (OK?).
And you lost any respect from everybody!
(October 10, 2012 at 2:39 pm)ronedee Wrote: I pretty much knew this would happen from the get go. But I also thought I'd get good, engaging arguments on why there isn't a God. My observations (if I may do some twisting myself) is there are deep rooted reasons besides "I haven't seen a God lately", that makes you rely on your eyes and reasoning based on subtraction.
And I thought you'd bring some fresh new argument for why there is a god and it must be the christian one, as you'd claimed on your first post.
But you didn't.... you just threw some generalities and expected us to guess what you were actually thinking. Try to write everything that's on your mind about the subject. Put it in a new thread and let's discuss it.
Some here may reply cordially, some may reply with a lot of fucks. It's up to you then to engage who you prefer. So far, you seem to prefer the fucks... can't imagine why...
(October 10, 2012 at 2:39 pm)ronedee Wrote: No matter what you feel about God... Faith is still a part of EVERY person's life! Whether it's believing that our country will rebound, or the stockmarket, or our kid will do good in school, or that our faithfulness in our job, or careers will pay off someday.
"Belief in something" is different from "belief in god".
Please try to understand the distinction.
(October 10, 2012 at 2:39 pm)ronedee Wrote:
Not all of you have chimmed in, but most of you seem to think I'm just another religious zealot who's trying to thump you over the head with my bible. And with nothing to offer except more of the same.
I'm understanding that you don't want to engage in anything that will refute what you have your mind set on. I guess I'm like that too.....BUT....with one big difference!
I'm unable to think that this is all there is to life! "Time" alone, and of itself proves there was indeed a beginning....and there will be an end! What preceeded that, and what will come after that are still a mystery to EVERYONE!
In other words: I'd like to have converted you lot by now, but you are stubborn!
Come on, start a thread with what it is that makes you believe in whatever you believe. We'll then try to pick it apart.
(October 11, 2012 at 2:21 pm)ronedee Wrote: I did say from the beginning that I was looking for open minded people of any pursuation for intelligent conversation about ideas, and concepts about creation and Christianity. But all I've received is a barrage of insults, twisting and dissection of my words which has brought out the bad side of me!
Ever since your first post, I said: bring it on. Still waiting, but I've alreade given you something to chew on.
(October 11, 2012 at 2:21 pm)ronedee Wrote: It does say: CHRISTIANITY on this sub-forum...right?
I don't feel that anyone here is really interested in challenging themselves with new concepts.
I've challenged people in my own religion...and myself with MANY ideas....It's how I learn and grow! Also, I'm not used to being kicked around verbally, about things people THINK I said, or that I IMPLIED!!! What's that shit all about?! That is frustrating.
I realize that a "newbie" anywhere has to endure the "rub"....and I'm trying to survive it to show my good intentions. But you're making it unpleasant to say the least.
You all say I have nothing new to bring to the table...LOL...I haven't even had a chance to say anything!!
I could be thumping the bible and CAPPING scripture at you! Would that work better than just conversing?
If this is the way it will go...Keep it up and I'll leave. But remember, there's always something to be learn from each other, no matter what our individual beliefs are. I'm open to your "rational" ideas!
Not because I want to change my Faith! But to the contrary! I want all the re-enforcement there is by: "challenging" my ideas from intelligent people who can articulate their opposite stance! It's healthy!
If this makes no sense to you, then I am indeed in the wrong place...intellectually!
Please, if you have some new concepts, present them.
I'm looking forward to them.
LMAO! With a Title like this thread has: I'M HELD TO TASK!?
This is like some weird carnival funhouse.... The one with the distorted glass!
I say something sincere and it comes back all screwy looking! Sorta like paper through a shredder.
All you are interested in really.... is amusing yourselves with whatever rebellious thought that pops into your heads. Like little school brats picking on the new kid because he don't look like them.
I'm starting to realize...It's not about truth and open-mindedness here. It's about closed-mindedness & lies. "No one Christian could possibly have a good idea, or anything constructive to say!"
Even in the "face of God" you would tell him: "I Will NOT ______" (Enter your own complaint). Because that's WHAT YOU ARE!
But I guess it's meant to be. Without people like you I'd have nothing to strive for in life!
October 11, 2012 at 4:26 pm (This post was last modified: October 11, 2012 at 4:27 pm by pocaracas.)
(October 11, 2012 at 3:47 pm)ronedee Wrote: LMAO! With a Title like this thread has: I'M HELD TO TASK!?
When I answered you, I didn't do it in the context of this thread.
I couldn't care less for your nation. Idiot Americansky pigs. Love you guys!
But you, on the other hand, seem to be in no hurry to make a proper point. I suggested you to do it in another thread, one started by yourself, but you don't seem to pay attention.
(October 11, 2012 at 3:47 pm)ronedee Wrote:
This is like some weird carnival funhouse.... The one with the distorted glass!
I say something sincere and it comes back all screwy looking! Sorta like paper through a shredder.
All you are interested in really.... is amusing yourselves with whatever rebellious thought that pops into your heads. Like little school brats picking on the new kid because he don't look like them.
I'm starting to realize...It's not about truth and open-mindedness here. It's about closed-mindedness & lies. "No one Christian could possibly have a good idea, or anything constructive to say!"
Of course you could. But you yourself, just haven't done so.
I've invited you to do it, but can't see you doing it. You just complain that I/we don't care for what you say.
I'd like to hear you out, but you refuse to speak.
I'm from a country that is historically catholic. For me, christian is almost the same as catholic. Go ahead. Try to make your point without playing the helpless victim and please do your best to keep from insulting all atheists in the process.
(October 11, 2012 at 3:47 pm)ronedee Wrote: Even in the "face of God" you would tell him: "I Will NOT ______" (Enter your own complaint). Because that's WHAT YOU ARE!
Call me stupid if you'd like, but I didn't get this one.
I'm always expecting some god to present itself to me in a way that is sufficient for me to accept it as real... If it is a proper god, it'll know what's required... even I don't really know!
I have serious doubts that it'll happen, given that many people before me expected the same and turned out empty handed.
(October 11, 2012 at 3:47 pm)ronedee Wrote: But I guess it's meant to be. Without people like you I'd have nothing to strive for in life!
You answered nothing of what I posted above, you just whine and whine and whine...
I'm under the impression you are really a troll.
Either that or a stupid kid.
Prove me wrong or just keep whining.
PS: do note I haven't used the F- word nor any other such vocabulary. Some of us don't like it.
ronedee Wrote:All you are interested in really.... is amusing yourselves with whatever rebellious thought that pops into your heads. Like little school brats picking on the new kid because he don't look like them.
Plenty of people have attempted to engage in thoughtful conversation with you. You seem, however, to only be focused on the people that are giving you a hard time. You're never going to get 100% constructive answers on the internet, so try to focus on those that are actually trying to converse with you.
Even if the open windows of science at first make us shiver after the cozy indoor warmth of traditional humanizing myths, in the end the fresh air brings vigor, and the great spaces have a splendor of their own - Bertrand Russell
Oh yeah...I suppose we could make it a thingy and fixate on peoples use of expletives. Please continue your lecture.
The "C" word is pretty inflammatory in certain Atheist communities at the moment (and Australian politics.)
How about you show off and say that word a few dozen times too!
Then everyone can applaud.
I would rather fixate on your incorrect information that you have stated you got from the ABS but have not provided a link. You get caught out either making a mistake or lying and you want to talk about swear words. Nice avoidance. Admit your mistake or confess your lie. If you can't do that then I will have to assume what you write can be classed as bullshit( Oh fuck I just swore, god damn it I am a dickhead(for balance cunthead) sometimes).
I already said my stats came from the EXACT SAME SITE.
October 12, 2012 at 12:56 am (This post was last modified: October 12, 2012 at 12:57 am by System of Solace.)
Lion, from that site:
Quote:In the past decade, the proportion of the population reporting an affiliation to a Christian religion decreased from 68% in 2001 to 61% in 2011. This trend was also seen for the two most commonly reported denominations. In 2001, 27% of the population reported an affiliation to Catholicism. This decreased to 25% of the population in 2011. There was a slightly larger decrease for Anglicans from 21% of the population in 2001 to 17% in 2011. Some of the smaller Christian denominations increased over this period - there was an increase for those identifying with Pentecostal from 1.0% of the population in 2001 to 1.1% in 2011. However, the actual number of people reporting this religion increased by one-fifth.
Quote:The number of people reporting 'No Religion' also increased strongly, from 15% of the population in 2001 to 22% in 2011. This is most evident amongst younger people, with 28% of people aged 15-34 reporting they had no religious affiliation.
Looks like somebody lied.
The true beauty of a self-inquiring sentient universe is lost on those who elect to walk the intellectually vacuous path of comfortable paranoid fantasies.
October 12, 2012 at 1:02 am (This post was last modified: October 12, 2012 at 1:21 am by Lion IRC.)
(October 12, 2012 at 12:56 am)System of Solace Wrote: Lion, from that site:
Quote:In the past decade, the proportion of the population reporting an affiliation to a Christian religion decreased from 68% in 2001 to 61% in 2011. This trend was also seen for the two most commonly reported denominations. In 2001, 27% of the population reported an affiliation to Catholicism. This decreased to 25% of the population in 2011. There was a slightly larger decrease for Anglicans from 21% of the population in 2001 to 17% in 2011. Some of the smaller Christian denominations increased over this period - there was an increase for those identifying with Pentecostal from 1.0% of the population in 2001 to 1.1% in 2011. However, the actual number of people reporting this religion increased by one-fifth.
Quote:The number of people reporting 'No Religion' also increased strongly, from 15% of the population in 2001 to 22% in 2011. This is most evident amongst younger people, with 28% of people aged 15-34 reporting they had no religious affiliation.
Looks like somebody lied.
Who? Where?
This is what I have said
"No religion/Religion Not Stated''
2006 - 30.6%
2011 - 22.3%
Total # Christians in 2011 up 3.6% from 2006
Total # Catholics up 6.1% from 2006
I have studied the results very closely.
meanwhile..............
Pentecostal denominations UP by 1/5th - +20%
Thats not true!
Its actually only up 8.4% from 2006. (Still pretty good effort though!)
I think you need reminding that the comparison period I am referring to is from the most recent census to the one previous- 2011 versus 2006.
The census is held every 5 years not every 10 years pal.
Why you are abstracting with 2001 is between you and the mystery guests you are chatting to.
Of course if you want a REALLY BIG NUMBER compare the growth Pentecostals saw between the 1996 census and the 1986 census.
(October 10, 2012 at 8:55 pm)Lion IRC Wrote: I got the 2006 info from the ABS census site too.
"No religion/Religion Not Stated''
2006 - 30.6%
2011 - 22.3%
I included the religion ''Not Stated" numbers which is a 2006 Census option that was absorbed/replaced by "No Religion" in 2011.
This is from my link which is from Australian Bureau of Statistics
Religious affiliation top responses___2011____%_____2006____%
Catholic______________________5,439,2682_25.3__5,126,885_25.8
No Religion____________________4,796,787_22.3__3,706,553_18.7
Anglican______________________3,679,907_17.1___3,718,248_18.7
Uniting Church_________________1,065,795__5.0___1,135,427_5.7
Presbyterian and Reformed_________599,515_2.8_____596,667_3.0
The Australian Bureau of Statistics clearly does not believe that "Not Stated" was absorbed by No Religion as you and everyone else can see from above. Check my link. The only changes I made was where it says Australia I replaced with 2011(less confusion IMO) and creating spaces to form columns(That was fucking frustrating).
Quote:Total # Christians in 2011 up 3.6% from 2006
Total population growth during that period up 8.3%
And you can bet that atheists arent contributing as much as theists to the population growth in .au
Was it Eric Kaufmann who said the contraceptive pill is like cyanide for atheism?
Are you trying to do a "Braveheart" line where if you can't get rid of them then you breed them out(something like that anyway). So the only way theists can increase actual numbers(not percentage to the population) is through breeding and not through reasoning. I agree, poor kids not allowed to think freely, I think it's called child abuse.
(October 10, 2012 at 9:04 pm)Lion IRC Wrote: # Catholics up 6.1% from 2006 hock:
Thats a surprising jump.
'000
2006
5126.9
2011
5439.2
Since you used percentages first that is why I said christian religions were going down(proportion to population) as can be seen from above. So next time when you reply to one of my post please make sure you are not twisting it around and trying to make out that I am giving false data. Also try to provide links to your evidence, maybe one of our links is not from Australian Bureau of Statistics.
This is the post you seem to be ignoring. It shows me posting a link to refute your statement. My link has the year 2006 included whereas yours seems to show the difference for 2001 to 2011 and even then goes against what you are trying to state which is "No Religion" is reducing in the population. I also showed how the ABS seems to disagree with your notion that "Not Stated" was absorbed by "No Religion", look at my table.
Don't forget christian religions are falling as a percentage of the population.
(pardon the expression), nor convert anyone! Just to throw out a few ideas, interesting facts and observations for debate and conversations!
sense
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hock:
