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A Simple Question...or 3!
#21
RE: A Simple Question...or 3!
(November 16, 2012 at 10:25 pm)ronedee Wrote: DO YOU WANT TO BELIEVE IN GOD?
No.

Quote:...or is [proof] the main thing holding you back?
Yes, the lack of proof is responsible for my lack of belief. If something is proved, you believe it; there is no choice.

Quote:Do you believe that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe?
No.
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#22
RE: A Simple Question...or 3!
It seems I'm late for the party, but I'm putting my 2 cents anyway!

(November 16, 2012 at 10:25 pm)ronedee Wrote: DO YOU WANT TO BELIEVE IN GOD?
No.
(November 16, 2012 at 10:25 pm)ronedee Wrote: ...or is [proof] the main thing holding you back?
If a god proves itself to exist, we'll know that it does exist. No belief is then required.
Since this god has failed to prove himself, we assume it is simply a figment of someone's imagination which caught on and was then built upon by other fertile imaginations.

(November 16, 2012 at 10:25 pm)ronedee Wrote: Do you believe that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe?
I answered that here: https://atheistforums.org/thread-15540-p...#pid363909

(November 16, 2012 at 10:25 pm)ronedee Wrote: Can anyone here (besides us zealots) answer a question, or challenge to their reasoning seriously? oops thats 4!

The "seriously" part of that question makes me think that you don't include yourself in that group of people that started the question...


(November 16, 2012 at 10:59 pm)ronedee Wrote: Ok....For those who don't "think" there is a God, or want to "think" there is a God...
So, for everyone, right?
(November 16, 2012 at 10:59 pm)ronedee Wrote: Why would you think there is intelligent life somewhere else?
Life is a biological process. As it came to be on this planet, so it can come to be on some other of the billions of planets of the Universe.
If intelligent life could sprout from life on this planet, it seems probable that it would sprout elsewhere.

(November 16, 2012 at 10:59 pm)ronedee Wrote: Wouldn't it be a "belief" that someone exists w/o seeing proof?
No.
The possibility that such lifeforms exists is real, but we just can't say that they do exist.

(November 16, 2012 at 10:59 pm)ronedee Wrote: Also, wouldn't it be possible for this unproven intelligent life to be 100's of billions of years superior to us? And actual hide from us 40,000 year old infants?
Well, it would necessarily have to come from, at least, a second generation star, much like our sun.
This requirement is there because the first generation stars only have Hydrogen in their makeup... and planets made of hydrogen are just gaseous clumps, or nebulae... not exactly planets at all! As this first generation star matures, it converts hydrogen to helium and close to the end of it's life cycle, it fuses nuclei to produce a large amount of elements up to Iron (in mass), and traces of the remaining heavier elements. The star dies when the fusion reactions' force ceases to balance the force of gravity.... which happens when the force of gravity isn't powerful enough to fuse heavy nuclei.

A second generation star uses hydrogen from somewhere else (a nebula) and the elements created by the first star will tend to clump around it, in planets.
So considering that the fist generation star had a lifetime of about 8 billion years, this second generation star will be about 5 billion years old, much like our sun.
Then you have to give it time for life to appear and then intelligent life. Here on Earth, it took too long, most likely due to all the mass extinctions we got... Elsewhere, such extinctions may have not happened and intelligent life could have developed much earlier... at best, 300 million years earlier.

So, at best, they would be a few millions of years ahead of us.... Even so, they may be bound by the physical limit of the speed of light in their travels. Also, why would they come here? The received some of our transmissions? Then they must have stated their travels some 60 years ago. If they are more than 60 light-years away (which would be very likely), then they wouldn't have even departed yet.
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#23
RE: A Simple Question...or 3!
(November 17, 2012 at 8:38 am)pocaracas Wrote:
(November 16, 2012 at 10:59 pm)ronedee Wrote: Also, wouldn't it be possible for this unproven intelligent life to be 100's of billions of years superior to us? And actual hide from us 40,000 year old infants?
Well, it would necessarily have to come from, at least, a second generation star, much like our sun.
This requirement is there because the first generation stars only have Hydrogen in their makeup... and planets made of hydrogen are just gaseous clumps, or nebulae... not exactly planets at all! As this first generation star matures, it converts hydrogen to helium and close to the end of it's life cycle, it fuses nuclei to produce a large amount of elements up to Iron (in mass), and traces of the remaining heavier elements. The star dies when the fusion reactions' force ceases to balance the force of gravity.... which happens when the force of gravity isn't powerful enough to fuse heavy nuclei.

A second generation star uses hydrogen from somewhere else (a nebula) and the elements created by the first star will tend to clump around it, in planets.
So considering that the fist generation star had a lifetime of about 8 billion years, this second generation star will be about 5 billion years old, much like our sun.
Then you have to give it time for life to appear and then intelligent life. Here on Earth, it took too long, most likely due to all the mass extinctions we got... Elsewhere, such extinctions may have not happened and intelligent life could have developed much earlier... at best, 300 million years earlier.

So, at best, they would be a few millions of years ahead of us.... Even so, they may be bound by the physical limit of the speed of light in their travels. Also, why would they come here? The received some of our transmissions? Then they must have stated their travels some 60 years ago. If they are more than 60 light-years away (which would be very likely), then they wouldn't have even departed yet.

Nice detail. I can't help myself from saying 100's of billions is practically an order of magnitude more than our best guess regarding the age of the universe. So for any being to be that old it would have to exist independently of everything associated with the big bang. It would have to have come into existence much before the big bang associated with our universe. Such a creature would also have needed the means of getting to hell out of the way during the earliest stages of the big bang. Any being that can do all that may as well be gods for all the difference it makes.

(November 17, 2012 at 4:02 am)Daniel Wrote:
  • Do you want to believe in God?

I do believe in God.
  • ...or is [proof] the main thing holding you back?
  • Do you believe that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe?

I believe in Physics, so yes. Either God specifically planted life on Earth 3 billion years ago, or life self-starts, and if life self-starts then there certainly should be life throughout the universe. Either case doesn't affect my salvation one way or the other.

Daniel, you interest me. So you do assume life is 3 billion or so years old on this planet. Are you saying you would have no problem accepting that life self starts? If so, I wonder how you reconcile that with any form of Christian faith.

Do you credit your version of the Christian God with creating the universe as we find it? Could you still make sense of God as you conceptualize it/Him if He is not the creator? Could the universe as we find it also self start? Could God as you understand it/Him also have to work within the universe as He finds it? Perhaps the laws of physics are just a given for God too with the only difference being His ability to work between or around those very laws from some higher perspective which transcend them in ways we can't imagine.

Please, do say more. Also, I wonder if you would count yourself as an agnostic? That is, I wonder if you embrace your belief without the illusion of certainty. [I don't ask because I'm eager to go on the attack. I know there are intelligent ways to embrace 'faith' and I'm beginning to think you may have found one.]
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#24
RE: A Simple Question...or 3!
(November 16, 2012 at 10:25 pm)ronedee Wrote: DO YOU WANT TO BELIEVE IN GOD?

I want to believe in A god - though not your god.

(November 16, 2012 at 10:25 pm)ronedee Wrote: ...or is [proof] the main thing holding you back?

Mostly. I call it intellectual honesty.


(November 16, 2012 at 10:25 pm)ronedee Wrote: Do you believe that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe?

Aliens? Sure.



(November 16, 2012 at 10:25 pm)ronedee Wrote: Can anyone here (besides us zealots) answer a question, or challenge to their reasoning seriously? oops thats 4!

Sure.
Reply
#25
RE: A Simple Question...or 3!
(November 17, 2012 at 12:02 am)The_Germans_are_coming Wrote: Why do most christians always refuse to reply to me!

You seemed surprised. To me the answer is obvious. I try to look behind the statements people make and understand their motivations.

The pathology of christards.
You may well see this forum as primarily as a place for open discussion. However the christards tend not have this approach. There is an imperative in christian and islamic philosophies to prothletise. This imperative is often the driving factor that brings them to this forum.

They want to spread their philosophy. When one of their number put up a thread asking if he could use his interaction here as evidence of his work, many atheists expressed surprise that merely making posts to express opinions could be considered work. But for the christian involved it is work, there seems to be only one driving force which is to make conversions.

Given this, you see the christards act similarly to predators, some will make a sudden rush to cause discord, a trollish type approach. Others will use camouflage pretending to be one of the godless so they can get close, and others will be all reasonable, as though prothletising has never been on their mind. But it is to the most part the only reason why they are here.

As such, christards are directed to go after the weak, and vulnerable, or leaders, but they will avoid those of us who have little status, but strong views.
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#26
RE: A Simple Question...or 3!
(November 16, 2012 at 10:25 pm)ronedee Wrote: DO YOU WANT TO BELIEVE IN GOD?

Uh, which god? As you know, there are literally thousands to choose from, all with equal amounts of valid evidence to justify a belief “in” them, i.e. NONE.

Quote:...or is [proof] the main thing holding you back?

I’d say the lack of a single shred of evidence for any god is what is “holding me back”.

Quote:Do you believe that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe?

Given that we have empirical evidence of the existence of billions of galaxies, each with billions of stars and planets, it is certainly not improbable that there may be other life forms in the universe.

What has this got do with the price of rice in China?

Quote:Can anyone here (besides us zealots) answer a question, or challenge to their reasoning seriously? oops thats 4!

No, obviously you zealots are the only ones who can answer questions, or “challenge reason”.

BOMBS AWAY!
"If there are gaps they are in our knowledge, not in things themselves." Chapman Cohen

"Shit-apples don't fall far from the shit-tree, Randy." Mr. Lahey
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#27
RE: A Simple Question...or 3!
(November 16, 2012 at 10:25 pm)ronedee Wrote: DO YOU WANT TO BELIEVE IN GOD?

No. Im indifferent.

Quote:...or is [proof] the main thing holding you back?

proof would change everything. if something is proven, you have no choice but to believe.

Quote:Do you believe that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe?

It's incredibly likely given the amount of galaxies and the amount of stars in each, probability says yes. I say no because of lack of evidence.

Quote:Can anyone here (besides us zealots) answer a question, or challenge to their reasoning seriously? oops thats 4!

........?
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#28
RE: A Simple Question...or 3!
(November 17, 2012 at 4:02 am)Daniel Wrote: Given that we both agree God's Word is perfect -

Uh oh .. Panic .. zombie alert, zombie alert!
Reply
#29
RE: A Simple Question...or 3!
(November 16, 2012 at 10:59 pm)ronedee Wrote: Ok....For those who don't "think" there is a God, or want to "think" there is a God...

Why would you think there is intelligent life somewhere else?

Wouldn't it be a "belief" that someone exists w/o seeing proof?

Not going to answer your original questions as others have already done so and my sentiments would only echo theirs (except for Daniel's...).

However this particular quote ^ I will answer. There is a HUGE difference in thinking that life exists on other planets out there in the incomprehensibly vast void of space, and thinking that some ultra powered god exists outside of existence.

One of these is statistically highly likely, the other contradicts itself by very definition.


Me personally I don't necessarily believe that there is other life out there, rather I find it highly likely, and if I was a gambling man, I'd bet my student fees that there is life out there. Belief implies you take it on a leap of faith, without evidence. While life on other planets is not proven per se, life on this planet most certainly is. Take into account the ridiculous amount of planets out there, I'd wager a good few might have the same outcomes as our little earth.

God on the other hand? I'm yet to see any statistical analysis or glimmer of evidence to suggest he exists. Certainly not the god of one particular book that's for sure.

Quote:Also, wouldn't it be possible for this unproven intelligent life to be 100's of billions of years superior to us?

No, the universe is only 13.75 billion years old.

Quote:And actual hide from us 40,000 year old infants?

Umm what?
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#30
RE: A Simple Question...or 3!
(November 16, 2012 at 10:25 pm)ronedee Wrote: Do you want to believe in god?
I only believe in things if I have a good reason to. I don't care either way with regards to a deity or deities. The word "god" and/or "gods" is utterly meaningless to me.


Quote:...or is [proof] the main thing holding you back?
The existence of any such being is ultimately irrelevant to our lives.


Quote:Do you believe that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe?
Well we exist don't we?
[Image: milky_way.jpg]

Considering how vast the cosmos is, its more than likely that sapient life-forms exist out there, currently beyond our reach. I imagine they ponder what's out there too.
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