A Simple Question...or 3!

[Angrboda]

Why do most christians always refuse to reply to me!

You seemed surprised. To me the answer is obvious. I try to look behind the statements people make and understand their motivations.

The pathology of christards.
You may well see this forum as primarily as a place for open discussion. However the christards tend not have this approach. There is an imperative in christian and islamic philosophies to prothletise. This imperative is often the driving factor that brings them to this forum.

They want to spread their philosophy. When one of their number put up a thread asking if he could use his interaction here as evidence of his work, many atheists expressed surprise that merely making posts to express opinions could be considered work. But for the christian involved it is work, there seems to be only one driving force which is to make conversions.

Given this, you see the christards act similarly to predators, some will make a sudden rush to cause discord, a trollish type approach. Others will use camouflage pretending to be one of the godless so they can get close, and others will be all reasonable, as though prothletising has never been on their mind. But it is to the most part the only reason why they are here.

As such, christards are directed to go after the weak, and vulnerable, or leaders, but they will avoid those of us who have little status, but strong views.

This is one of the most brilliant and poignant bits of analysis that I've read in some time.

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@Daniel:

How does one go from "I have this text" plus "others say it is the perfect word of God" to this, "therefore, it is the perfect word of God." ?

[Rev. Rye]

If it could be demonstrated to my satisfaction that God existed, then I'd become a believer. Of course, believing something exists and worshipping it are two separate things.

UFO: It's plausible. After all, it's highly improbable that out of the many planets in the universe, only one can sustain life. That said, I don't hold out any hopes that they'll contact us; of course, maybe they've intercepted satellite beams from TLC and are heading to Earth to destroy our degenerate race, but I doubt it.

[Aractus]

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Also, wouldn't it be possible for this unproven intelligent life to be 100's of billions of years superior to us? And actual hide from us 40,000 year old infants?

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It's an interesting video, but it isn't of intelligent extraterrestrial life I'm afraid. The aerial phenomena, although unidentified, is unlikely to be visiting aliens. 1. How can they observe anything if they're moving that quick? 2. Why are they flying around at exactly the same time everyday?

[Ryantology]

DO YOU WANT TO BELIEVE IN GOD?

ABSOLUTELY UNLIKELY

...or is [proof] the main thing holding you back?

It is, but that is such a silly little thing to get worked up over.

Do you believe that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe?

I believe it is very likely that intelligent life exists somewhere in the universe.

Why would you think there is intelligent life somewhere else?

a) intelligent life exists on Earth, b) there are so many potential planets out there that the odds favor ours not being unique, and c) there have been billions of years for life to form on most of them.

Wouldn't it be a "belief" that someone exists w/o seeing proof?

Now, I do believe that there is life out there, and that is a measure of faith. Thing is, it is a measure of faith which is born from reason, and it is not something I would kill someone else over. I know you're trying to equate both 'beliefs', but there's a fundamental difference: Believing in God means that not only do you have to believe impossible things, but you have to ignore almost everything science has taught us for the last 400 years. Believing in intelligent extraterrestrial life requires that one believe that earthlike conditions exist on more than one of the billions of of trillions of quadrillions of planets (a cautious estimate) in the visible universe. There is nothing about this which sounds unlikely, much less impossible.

Also, wouldn't it be possible for this unproven intelligent life to be 100's of billions of years superior to us? And actual hide from us 40,000 year old infants?

Absolutely it would be. What is your point?

[Aractus]

Daniel, you interest me. So you do assume life is 3 billion or so years old on this planet. Are you saying you would have no problem accepting that life self starts? If so, I wonder how you reconcile that with any form of Christian faith.

If life doesn't self-start then I don't understand why God would choose to create living microbes instead of creating full-bodied creatures immediately. Living microbes really aren't special enough to warrant such special attention, and for the last 40,000-60,000 years until just recently humans have been unable to even appreciate that they exist.

Do you credit your version of the Christian God with creating the universe as we find it? Could you still make sense of God as you conceptualize it/Him if He is not the creator? Could the universe as we find it also self start? Could God as you understand it/Him also have to work within the universe as He finds it?

The universe is not able to self-start. It breaks every seriously established model of physics as we have it and emerges into a purely academic theoretical level of, well, silliness to imagine such a scenario as where the universe can create its own set of laws from nothing at all. God created the universe for us - and if he has other people living in other systems, then also for them. It's entirely possible that he created our moon for us as well, and put it where it is intentionally (after all, its size and position is just perfect).

With that said, the Big Bang theory still has many merits, but it isn't the definitive truth as to the origin of the universe.

Please, do say more. Also, I wonder if you would count yourself as an agnostic? That is, I wonder if you embrace your belief without the illusion of certainty. [I don't ask because I'm eager to go on the attack. I know there are intelligent ways to embrace 'faith' and I'm beginning to think you may have found one.]

I most certainly am not agnostic. As I mentioned in another thread we have a serious astrophysicist at our Church who has had about 15 of his students go on to become science advisors to world leaders, and he won the Prime Minister's award for Science this year.

I wouldn't expect him to force his view of dark-matter to a sceptic like me (even though I am a layman and not an astrophysicist; and he just won the aforementioned award for his work regarding dark matter). I have no idea what his opinion on evolution is, it's entirely logical that if I asked he could say something like "I'm an astrophysicist, I don't care to know about how evolution works, that's for biologists to worry about". In the same way a biologist would possibly say to me "I'm a biologist, dark matter is not my concern, I don't care whether the universe is 10% dark matter, 90% dark matter or 200% dark matter". People who aren't interested in physics, and people who aren't interested in science at all, don't care to know about evolution one way or the other, or for that matter most other scientific theories (except for anthropogenic global warming since it's politicised).

By the way, just so we're perfectly clear, none of the above helps people who are struggling, or does anything whatsoever to fix the problems in our secular states. While science can help us appreciate some of the ways in which problems in society arise, it is the study of history and of politics that gives a greater understanding. I can't speak for all Christians, but what I do know is that here in Australia the Anglican Church does more for those in need in terms of providing finical support and relief, food and clothing, for those in our communities (yes, communities not just churches) then any other NPO or church denomination in Australia including the Roman Catholic Church. For instance, at this time of year, there are Anglican-run Christmas programs that allow struggling parents in our community to come and receive gifts for their children for free. Just like a regular "op shop" it is for everyone.

We also have cross-charity support too, one of the people in our church has been with a particular "secular" NPO for 15+ years. Even in so-called non-religious NPO's a greater proportion of their workers and/or volunteers are Christian as opposed to secular. With that said, I also firmly believe that in establishing Christian NPO's that nobody should be forced to adhere to the faith in order to support and work for the NPO - it works both ways IMHO.

[Ryantology]

The universe is not able to self-start. It breaks every seriously established model of physics as we have it and emerges into a purely academic theoretical level of, well, silliness to imagine such a scenario as where the universe can create its own set of laws from nothing at all. God created the universe for us - and if he has other people living in other systems, then also for them. It's entirely possible that he created our moon for us as well, and put it where it is intentionally (after all, its size and position is just perfect).

With that said, the Big Bang theory still has many merits, but it isn't the definitive truth as to the origin of the universe.

It doesn't matter if the Big Bang is the definitive truth. It is counter-productive to the point of stupidity to assume the work of God in every gap of knowledge. It is academic perversity to include any trace of your backwards superstition into any scientific discussion until you can demonstrate, according to the scientific method, that this god of yours exists and supply proof that the universe is his work.

We want to find out the answers. Chalking it up to God is saying "ignorance is okay, let's not worry about this anymore".

[The Grand Nudger]

Upon what metrics have you deemed this magical explanation of the moon to be "entirely possible"? By any metrics that refer to the rate that magic occurs I think it's more like "patently impossible." Whats perfect about it's size, how it attempts to crush us? Hell, what's perfect about it's position...that it's escaping....? Yeah, some perfect moon, trying to smother it's only friend while it waits for the day to say "Fuck You Big Blue (and all your precious goddamned life)..I'm outta here".

Did god cast this spell before or after the mundane business of the moons origins had already been accomplished?

[Minimalist]

If life doesn't self-start then I don't understand why God would choose to create living microbes instead of creating full-bodied creatures immediately.

Um...who are you to assume why your "god" does or does not do anything? Aren't you the believer here?

[Aractus]

It is counter-productive to the point of stupidity to assume the work of God in every gap of knowledge.

I do not point to God in the gap of every gap of scientific knowledge (theory). If I did that, I'd be point to God an awful lot more than I do in science.

[Cyberman]

It's entirely possible that he created our moon for us as well, and put it where it is intentionally (after all, its size and position is just perfect).

Is that why it is moving away from Earth at a current rate of about 3.8 cm a year, because its position is just perfect? Or would that be another one of those mysteries we hear so much about?