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What would make me accept the existence of a deity?
#11
RE: What would make me accept the existence of a deity?
(January 11, 2013 at 6:55 pm)CapnAwesome Wrote: It's so easy: God appearing.

How would you identify it?

Tele-transport may be used by a sufficiently developed society.
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#12
RE: What would make me accept the existence of a deity?
(January 11, 2013 at 3:16 pm)pocaracas Wrote: This is what all theists want to know. What would make an atheist accept the existence of a deity?

This seems to be the complement of the question about what it would take to make a Theist disbelieve. And it always seems to proceed from some false premises. First, assuming that it means what it would take to make you believe "as you are today." But you won't always be the you that you are today. You may grow, acquire needs you don't now have, learn new things, have experiences you don't anticipate, or even develop psychological illness you don't currently suffer. All that is required for an atheist to believe is for the neurons and synapses in the brain to be in the right configuration, and there is nothing about being an atheist which prevents your brain from assuming the right position. Given the generally robust nature of our brains, it is a relatively low probability that an atheist will go on to become a theist, but it's not that low that you need place world changing supernatural events ahead of it in line. Even an atheist as renowned as Antony Flew could have converted (though there are reasons to believe he didn't.) Enough of you will cross paths with manipulative cults, irrational fears, faulty cognitive behaviors and so on that your conversion from these events over time is far more probable, even if a god exists. I think hidden in here is a kernel of smug superiority, of the sort that says, "I found my way to truth via dint of my own intellectual virtue, and nothing can turn me away." Wrong. The fallibility of human nature and the behavior of humans under emotion and cognitive bias is well documented. There's a perfectly good chance that next year we might find pocaracas mewling about being probed by aliens. We're very vulnerable creatures. I won't say that suggesting that it couldn't happen to you is tempting fate, but it's certainly hubris. And it ignores the very mundane reasons why people who actually do come to believe happen to come to that belief.


Speaking of the "god in our hearts" phenomenon, I've recently had an epiphany. V.S. Ramachandran, the neuroscientist, has a theory about Capgras delusion. Capgras delusion is the condition where, usually after some brain injury or stroke, the individual can no longer recognize common people in their life, believing that persons such as their mother or spouse have been replaced by identical look-alikes; they agree that the people look the same, they just don't believe that they are the authentic people. An interesting side to Capgras delusion is that for many, if you present the person to them aurally, by having them talk to the person on the phone, the sense of inauthenticity is not present, and they readily recognize the person speaking as themselves. According to the explanation I've seen from Ramachandran, processing of visual stimuli such as a face splits and goes down to separate paths. One path, presumably, is focused on processing the visual features themselves, but the other path leads to an area of the brain where it is believed an emotional response is generated; a sort of, "aha, this is my mother," kind of feeling. Thus if this second pathway is disrupted, the emotional response which accompanies recognition is never generated, leading to the common syndrome of Capgras delusion. Now I'm going to skip some steps and just draw a rough outline, so forgive a little. One of the current theories of religion is that we process our ideas of the "mental" person, who they are in terms of mental traits like personality, goals, beliefs and so on, separately from the way we process their physical representation. Thus we can imagine the mental portion of somebody, their "spirit" leaving their body (OOBE), floating above their bodies in NDEs, and even surviving the physical destruction of the body itself (it's even been tested on young children, showing that young children treat the mind as persistent independent of the body [Jesse Bering]). Because of our needs as a social species, we have powerful mental mechanisms for reasoning about other person's minds, which, when combined with the ability to dissociate it from the physical, yields an enormously rich potential source of religious ideas. All the way from people's souls surviving death, to being reborn, to thunder storms being gods, to the animism of Shinto in which almost everything has a kami or spirit. Now the question that occurs to me is, if Ramachandran is right about there being an emotional component to visual person recognition, is there possibly also an emotional component to the recognition (pseudo-recognition) of a purely mental person? If so, if such an emotional response was acquired over time with experience of the mental representation of a physical person, is it possible that, over time, such an emotional response might become conditioned upon thinking of [a] mental representation [spirit, soul or god] independent of any [definite] physical representation? There are a lot of questions that would need to be answered about specific systems and conditioning, but it suggests an alternate hypothesis to account for the "God in my heart" phenomenon aside from the traditional wishful thinking or delusion. This feeling of having God in one's heart may simply be another consequence of the way our brains manage the "mental" component of personhood; perhaps they actually do feel God in their hearts because that is what happens when you come to know some mental person, even in the absence of a physical representation. (And it's possible the feeling is more intense or tangible in the absence of a physical correlary.) (Remember the Capgras delusion patients who could recognize a familiar by voice but not by sight? What kind of emotional correlates are there?) I don't find myself able to be aware of an emotional feeling when I recognize someone visually, but there are reasons beyond it simply not being there which explain my inability to sense an emotional response. At present, it's just an interesting hypothesis, but the pieces (most of them) seem to fit. Anyway, food for thought.

(There's a part to this which I neglected which deserves to be thrown in here. Our perception of where "we" are, where our mental substance is, and so on, appears held in place by a continual updating of it, in relation to various sense data. Since it's an input to our "mental image" of our selves, it's subject to distortion just like any other component, resulting in things like floating above our body in dissociation [note the presence of dissociation], OOBEs, and things like the Alice effect, where our bodies are perceived as larger or smaller than they actually are.)

(There's another piece which may suggest a compltely different hypothesis. There is an experiment in which people are asked to think about themselves thinking about a moral act, another person thinking about it, and then God thinking about it. In the first instance, an area of the brain lights up; when thinking about another person's thoughts, a different area lights up; and when thinking about God, the same area that lit up while thinking about oneself lights up again. So, it's also a distinct possibility that there is a tangible, somatosensory emotional experience because they are inadvertently "lighting up" areas of the brain having to do with self representation and attitudes toward self when they think of God. [This is why details matter.] I wonder if someone who feels that God must be ashamed of them has a qualitatively different experience of "God in my heart" than one with a clean conscience?)


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#13
RE: What would make me accept the existence of a deity?
Apo, nice contribution there, as always! Smile

Much of your text is related to a potential mental flaw that may make me believe in the existence of a god.
It is a possibility, yes, but, as you said, one with low probability.

My point was supposed to be, given that my health remains as close to what it is now, what could make me accept the existence of a god.
Do note that I never mentioned belief in a god... the only time I used the word believe, I was referring to "believing in other people".
I don't expect to believe in any god any time soon.
Either I'll have some solid information concerning its existence or, even if I undergo some extra-ordinary experience, but don't store a good enough proof of it, I'll probably end up doubting my own memory of such experience.
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#14
RE: What would make me accept the existence of a deity?
Quote:The survey finds that constant movement characterizes the American religious marketplace, as every major religious group is simultaneously gaining and losing adherents. Those that are growing as a result of religious change are simply gaining new members at a faster rate than they are losing members. Conversely, those that are declining in number because of religious change simply are not attracting enough new members to offset the number of adherents who are leaving those particular faiths.

To illustrate this point, one need only look at the biggest gainer in this religious competition - the unaffiliated group. People moving into the unaffiliated category outnumber those moving out of the unaffiliated group by more than a three-to-one margin. At the same time, however, a substantial number of people (nearly 4% of the overall adult population) say that as children they were unaffiliated with any particular religion but have since come to identify with a religious group. This means that more than half of people who were unaffiliated with any particular religion as a child now say that they are associated with a religious group. In short, the Landscape Survey shows that the unaffiliated population has grown despite having one of the lowest retention rates of all "religious" groups.

Statististics On Religion In America Report: Pew Forum On Religion and Public Life

It's not clear how many of these were self-identified atheists or agnostics, as opposed to those with "no particular belief" as both groups are counted in the unaffiliated population. Moreover, in Katherine Stewart's book The Good News Club, she quotes that most religious conversions occur between the ages of 4 and 14. I would want to exclude minors from the group for the obvious reason that volatility in their religious beliefs is likely just an effect of the maturation process.

I wasn't referring to abnormal processes or "flaws" leading to religious conversion, but rather to ordinary, everyday psychological processes. I think you completely misunderstood my point, likely due to gross ignorance of human psychology. It doesn't take an unusual event to convert an atheist to a theist. (Reading briefly the story of atheist blogger turned Catholic, Leah Libresco, it didn't take any extraordinary experience at all; her conversion was motivated by a dissatisfaction with atheist accounts of morality, which is a theme I see debated here at AF. And it doesn't take a god descending on fiery wings to overwhelm the human capacity for reason; conversion "experiences" are almost manufactured to order by religious proselytizers with revivals and the like. And the ways in which attachment to a family member or spouse can change one's thinking are pretty obvious.)


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#15
RE: What would make me accept the existence of a deity?
Well, I'm not that Leah woman.
And I'd call dissatisfaction with the way atheists handle morality a mental flaw Tongue
But then again, who doesn't have some kind of mental flaw? Even I must have one.. bad memory, or bad recall. And a huge tendency to simplify things (comes in real handy when I have to summarize something, but is crap when I have to be verbose).
I agree I over-simplified your point. Sorry about that.
I think my brain has enough fail-safes built-in that will prevent me from accepting that some deity exists without proper evidence.
Growing up, insecurities, unexplained phenomena, etc... should bear no weight on my mind... but who knows? If anything, I got from your post that I can't be sure something non-extraordinary won't convince at any point in my life. True, but has low probability.
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#16
RE: What would make me accept the existence of a deity?
Quote:For example, the designation “atheist” is stigmatized in many societies; even when people directly claim to not believe in God, they still eschew the self-designation of “atheist.” Greeley (2003) found that 41% of Norwegians, 48% of the French, and 54% of Czechs claimed to not believe in God, but only 10%, 19%, and 20% of those respondents self-identified as “atheist,” respectively.

Atheism: Contemporary Rates and Patterns (Phil Zuckerman; on the methodological difficulties in measuring non-belief)




(January 12, 2013 at 3:01 pm)pocaracas Wrote: But then again, who doesn't have some kind of mental flaw? Even I must have one.. bad memory, or bad recall. And a huge tendency to simplify things (comes in real handy when I have to summarize something, but is crap when I have to be verbose).
(emphasis mine)

From Wikipedia, a list of over 150 common mental 'flaws' that you may have as a result of being human.

Quote:Decision-making, belief and behavioral biases




Social biases




Memory errors and biases




I seem to recall saying something about 'hubris' in my first post....


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#17
RE: What would make me accept the existence of a deity?
Damn Apo, I fit into a lot of those categories..... I must be one messed up guy... Sad
Now I'm sad.
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#18
RE: What would make me accept the existence of a deity?
(January 11, 2013 at 3:16 pm)pocaracas Wrote: This is what all theists want to know. What would make an atheist accept the existence of a deity?
Uh, don't flatter yourself.
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#19
RE: What would make me accept the existence of a deity?
Lobotomy could sort these things out for me.
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#20
RE: What would make me accept the existence of a deity?
(January 11, 2013 at 7:27 pm)pocaracas Wrote:
(January 11, 2013 at 6:55 pm)CapnAwesome Wrote: It's so easy: God appearing.

How would you identify it?

Tele-transport may be used by a sufficiently developed society.

Well presumably he'd have me pick a hard, and then I'd put it back in the deck and then he'd know what card it is!

He'd be fucking god, he would do godlike things. If there was an alien posing as god that was omnipotent, then that is the same as that alien being god.
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