Religion and LGBT people

[Mystical]

Are you saying that sexuality one way or the other is a sliding scale and that we're all bi?

[fr0d0]

By the way I know quite a few gay christians.

Also, in my experience, sixth form/year 12/13 17/8yr olds are socially biased towards homosexuality. It's quite the fashion at that age, and a lot of people come out. A stark contrast to the bigoted attitude of younger kids.

---

Are you saying that sexuality one way or the other is a sliding scale and that we're all bi?

Sure it's a sliding scale. Bi is a point down the scale somewhere I think.

I liked this TV series a UK xtian minister did... One group of male monks he visited openly cuddled each other in bed. They just felt the need and did it. He was shocked, and then openly in awe of their openness and innocence.

[John V]

Are you saying that sexuality one way or the other is a sliding scale and that we're all bi?

Yes, that seems to fit reality better.

[Mystical]

Hmm.
How do you account for gay or lesbians that refuse heterosexual relations completely, then?
Or for straight individuals who absolutely refuse the idea of homosexual relations?

[fr0d0]

I think those people fool themselves

[John V]

Hmm.
How do you account for gay or lesbians that refuse heterosexual relations completely, then?
Or for straight individuals who absolutely refuse the idea of homosexual relations?

They're well to one end of the spectrum. Considering differences between cultures, it seems unlikely such refusal is determined at birth.

[Mystical]

By the way I know quite a few gay christians.

Also, in my experience, sixth form/year 12/13 17/8yr olds are socially biased towards homosexuality. It's quite the fashion at that age, and a lot of people come out. A stark contrast to the bigoted attitude of younger kids.

Where I live, which is almost completely Christian belief oriented: if you're gay you're an abomination. They're beat the fuck up, here. Hence the gay men I know portray themselves as straight in public. Granted, that's just the state I live in and for the most part I grew up in small towns. Adult's attitudes translate to kids' attitudes, and bigotry though. I was afraid to ask a girl out because I was concerned her parents would sever our friendship completely and then tell my parents which would've been just horrible. I had to constantly reinforce my 'boy crushes' to my friends so they wouldn't label me a 'lesbo' and send me off to the 'dyke' table, where I didn't fit in at all (I hated sports). Boys got it worse, they were called faggot even if they were openly straight yet had feminine character isms. It was like animalistic how the 'weak' males got picked on mercilessly. There was definitely an environment of condemnation, and ALL my friends or people in high school that I knew, didn't come out until out of high school. I am happy that things are getting better, but I doubt they're bigot free on the subject, so long as religion teaches it's an abomination and un natural. News flash to those guys: 1500 animal species have been identified as being homogeneous. Even gut worms. Animals without emotive stimuli.

[Question Mark]

They're well to one end of the spectrum. Considering differences between cultures, it seems unlikely such refusal is determined at birth.

To be fair, there is a relatively well known hypothesis that sexual orientation is not firmly placed along a dotted line on one particular dot labelled "Straight", "Gay", "Bi" &c.
However, most of us identify with one of these as the closest description of our feelings. For instance, I'm attracted to both men and women fairly equally, it really depends on the individual. I always have been that way so far back as I can remember being attracted to people.

[Esquilax]

The thing is, whether or not sexual orientation is a choice is completely irrelevant.

You all thought it was relevant before the evidence stacked up against you.

Huh. I was willing to let all that go, until you said this. Now you've asked for it: since you're so into evidence, let's take a closer look at the evidence you presented, shall we?

Your study's sample group was 98 people, or as we in the scientific community like to say, "criminally small." All of those 98 people were members of Exodus International, indicating some psychological desire to change on their part, possibly enough to be invested enough to trick themselves. The length of time each member of the sample group had been involved in the program varied quite a bit (one to three years) meaning that the individual experiences make it quite hard to draw any valid conclusions.

Of this group, only 11 people reported any change in their attractions, and none of those reported a complete reversal, only that they had become slightly more attracted to the opposite sex as a result of the program. We can put this down quite easily to psychological investment in the program, but even if we didn't, this is a laughably small change. Anecdotally, at least one of the participants later recanted, saying he lied about the change, and is now living as an out gay man.

So, the evidence is hardly stacked against us, John. You simply didn't read your own citation's findings before declaring your position correct by fiat. Big difference.

[Mystical]

Interesting..
So people are born with a sexual predisposition based on genetics, then environment affects it on a sliding scale continuum? How would this theory account for those whose sexual orientation is homosexual or heterosexual from the beginning and doesn't change, though? I think to my gay friend, and he's absolutely repulsed by womens' anatomy, and he's been this way since elementary school.

AMERICAN PSYCHOLOGICAL ASSOCIATION
What is sexual orientation?
Sexual orientation refers to an enduring pattern of emotional, romantic, and/or sexual attractions to men, women, or both sexes. Sexual orientation also refers to a person’s sense of identity based on those attractions, related behaviors, and membership in a community of others who share those attractions. Research over several decades has demonstrated that sexual orientation ranges along a continuum, from exclusive attraction to the other sex to exclusive attraction to the same sex. However, sexual orientation is usually discussed in terms of three categories: heterosexual (having emotional, romantic, or sexual attractions to members of the other sex), gay/lesbian (having emotional, romantic, or sexual attractions to members of one’s own sex), and bisexual (having emotional, romantic, or sexual attractions to both men and women).
http://www.apa.org/helpcenter/sexual-orientation.aspx



http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/200...205430.htm
Homosexual Behavior Largely Shaped By Genetics And Random Environmental Factors
June 30, 2008 — Homosexual behaviour is largely shaped by genetics and random environmental factors, according to findings from the world's largest study of twins.

Writing in the scientific journal Archives of Sexual Behavior, researchers from Queen Mary's School of Biological and Chemical Sciences, and Karolinska Institutet in Stockholm report that genetics and environmental factors (which are specific to an individual, and may include biological processes such as different hormone exposure in the womb), are important determinants of homosexual behaviour.
Dr Qazi Rahman, study co-author and a leading scientist on human sexual orientation, explains: "This study puts cold water on any concerns that we are looking for a single 'gay gene' or a single environmental variable which could be used to 'select out' homosexuality - the factors which influence sexual orientation are complex. And we are not simply talking about homosexuality here - heterosexual behaviour is also influenced by a mixture of genetic and environmental factors.
The team led by Dr Niklas Långström at Karolinska Institutet conducted the first truly population-based survey of all adult (20-47 years old) twins in Sweden. Studies of identical twins and non-identical, or fraternal, twins are often used to untangle the genetic and environmental factors responsible for a trait. While identical twins share all of their genes and their entire environment, fraternal twins share only half of their genes and their entire environment. Therefore, greater similarity in a trait between identical twins compared to fraternal twins shows that genetic factors are partly responsible for the trait.
This study looked at 3,826 same-gender twin pairs (7,652 individuals), who were asked about the total numbers of opposite sex and same sex partners they had ever had. The findings showed that 35 per cent of the differences between men in same-sex behaviour (that is, that some men have no same sex partners, and some have one or more) is accounted for by genetics.
Rahman explains: "Overall, genetics accounted for around 35 per cent of the differences between men in homosexual behaviour and other individual-specific environmental factors (that is, not societal attitudes, family or parenting which are shared by twins) accounted for around 64 per cent. In other words, men become gay or straight because of different developmental pathways, not just one pathway."
For women, genetics explained roughly 18 per cent of the variation in same-sex behaviour, non-shared environment roughly 64 per cent and shared factors, or the family environment, explained 16 per cent.
The study shows that genetic influences are important but modest, and that non-shared environmental factors, which may include factors operating during foetal development, dominate. Importantly, heredity had roughly the same influence as shared environmental factors in women, whereas the latter had no impact on sexual behaviour in men.
Dr Rahman adds: "The study is not without its limitations - we used a behavioural measure of sexual orientation which might be ok to use for men (men's psychological orientation, sexual behaviour, and sexual responses are highly related) but less so for women (who show a clearer separation between these elements of sexuality). Despite this, our study provides the most unbiased estimates presented so far of genetic and non-genetic contributions to sexual orientation."