Why can't science detect angels and demons?

[Esquilax]

are you sure?
how do you know?
did you somehow personally verify that?
demons in the swine had to go somewhere

I like this. We can't definitively prove that certain evil people weren't supernatural entities that we couldn't possibly test for, and so for some reason the obvious answer is that they must be demons.

Occam's Razor!

Seriously, what's more likely: they were men, or that they were magic?

[EGross]

They were human, I assure you.

are you sure?
how do you know?
did you somehow personally verify that?
demons in the swine had to go somewhere

hock:

(I have always found it weird that Christians (at least in the USA) later adoped the taste for honey baked ham to commemorate the ressurection of their dead Jew).

But possession? Really?

Well, it's still part of the thread, I suppose, the belief in posession, a superstitious practice by the older religious who cannot deal with mental illness with the exception of torturing the victim.

Many years ago, I lived down the road from Gacy, so I can assure you he was a real person, not posessed. Just a sick twisted bastard.

I would think that any religion that embraces a devil, (Christianity and Islam come to mind), a belief in a supernatural being who rebels against the creator and then is given carte blanche to do all the evil he wants, making god evil by his permitting of this to occur by extension (in American legal terms - depraved indifference), should cause it's membership to reevaluate their connection to such an out of date practice.

It's amazing that Christians will point out the lunacy of the koran, Muslims will not accept the divinity of Jesus, and by extension, dismiss the Christian texts as nonsense that make mention of that, the Jews hold that the Koran and Christian texts are certainly flawed and man-made texts. And yet these very same members do not apply their own logic that they use to disprove other religions against their own.



Devils and demons? Sure "Supernatural" and "The Walking Dead" are fun fiction for some, (if devils, why not zombies?), but nobody watching that takes it seriously (I hope!). And many of these same people will later speak of some recent atrocity in the news and of their hope that so-and-so burns for all eternity in hell.

I am a rational human being, meaning I don't need 10 (or so) commandments to tell me that killing is bad. And I don't need the fear of eternal damnation from some uncaring creator to force me to do good. Secular society did that for me already.

[Something completely different]

The idea of possession was attacked by many muslim scholars, it negates the concept of "responsibility is attached to each of you" which was mentioned in Islam.

Insane people don't get a trial in the afterlife, so as children & any person who can't think probably due to disorders or sickness , so the devil is actually doing us a favor by possessing us ; since we can't control ourselves we would simply walk into heaven clean without a trial.

it's a false concept which defies any believe in the afterlife.

Are you now saying that illness is "possession by the devil"?

At first you say that illness makes a person incapable to be judged and then you say that the devil is doing those a favor?

could you clarify?

[KichigaiNeko]

[EGross]

The idea of possession was attacked by many muslim scholars, it negates the concept of "responsibility is attached to each of you" which was mentioned in Islam.

While they may have attacked it, the reality is that Islam, like Christianity, does believe in demons, as well as punishment by them after death. Demonic posession is also not unheard of in either religion, the book "Fatwas on Faith Healing & Witchcraft" by Khaled al-Jeraisy goes into that in detail.

With many believers, when they come across something really embarassing about their religion, they just skip over it. To not just pick on Islam and Christianity, in Judaism it is halachically forbidden (think of it as a fatwa) to have your fringes sticking out at a gravesite. The reason? Because it will upset the dead because they are embarasssed that they can't wear them anymore.

Or the reason Jews are halachically required to wash their hands as soon as they get up is because tiny clingy demons are under the fingernails (Dybbuks). Also, your hands might have been roaming your private parts while you were asleep!

hock:

When I bring that up the published reason in the code of law to reasonable Jews, they are astounded that such a superstition exists, but are willing to accept and live with it.

This is true of Islam, Christianity and any other religion that deals in angels and demons. It is an embarassment, but you cannot get rid of it because it is at the foundation of that religion. It would be like saying "That whole Adam and Eve story is stupid. Let's drop it."

They can't. Once it is cast in stone, that's it. It isn't like Science, where if you discover that what you considered is stupid, you discard it an move on. In religion, once you discover it's stupid, you cover it up with more stories to keep it protected, but sort of hidden.

So down with the mythologies, fake prophets, and unholy books of all religions!

[WinterHold]

EGross, as far as you understand religion , why do you think we're here ?

My purpose is to be me. Yours is to be you. The purpose of a tree is to be a tree and a rock to be a rock. One does not need a divine reason to live, but one needs to create his own reason for living.

I do not require a master to submit to and be beholding to. Yes, I am a stand-alone version that operates without the need of a Master Control Program to operate at my full potential.

It's a deterministic model that I operate from. And so, my use of the software metaphor is intentional, because while yours operates as though it is free, it is not. I operate as though I am not free, but in reality, I am.

All the best.
Eliyahu

Exactly, it's all about you. I like this way of thinking. #small note : I'm not kissing ass to prove my point. I truly like this way of thinking.

But putting that into consideration, how do we live if things around us weren't there for a reason ? I'm not trying to give you a headache by Computer Science, but we are studying many things including A.I & how to build a smart system.

Any computer you see is composed of many, many pieces, thinking about them might give you a true headache ; I spent 3 years studying that & still facing a problem in understanding the whole thing.

What I want to say is : to build a smart system -a system that actually works- everything must be there for a reason. The earth we live on is a smart system, since it has many functions inside it.

Rain is an example of a function on earth. It's impossible to have a function without a smart system behind it, Eliyahu. Ask any computer scientist. The computer has functions because a smart system is behind it, without it that function is impossible to compose or execute.

Try to think about it from that perspective : ) it's a scientific way of thinking ; you can't blame me, right ? my field of education is forcing me to believe that everything exists for a reason.

Just remember that Islam is a message, and the person who receives it might choose to believe or not. But if you had a thought in the future about this world not being "just there for no reason", remember Islam, it might provide an answer for you : ).

Best regards
Mohammed

[EGross]

While everything exists for a reason, it is up to us to make our own reason. To become slaves to a mythology takes that opportunity away. You have surrendered to a mythology created by man, and you are a slave to that ideology. You cannot imaging making a choice outside of that command set.

For example, it is Ramadan and Yom Kippur, and it is 1pm in the afternnon, and we are alone together in a hotel room, and there are a couple of ham and cheese sandwhiches just begging to be eaten. If I do not eat it simply because of a storybook where a bronze age deity supposedly told some slaves in the desert that the person who does so would be case out from His special nation, then I am not thinking rationally, but I am responding to fear and dead of what some silent supernatural being might do after I die.

So I would eat it, not as much because of the hunger, but to prove to you that there is no God to punish you. Just as a challenge.

Would you have that same power to take a stand for yourself and eat that sandwhich, or would you leave and go back to your master? After all, it's just a story made up by someone you never met.

The power is never in surrendering. The power has aways been in breaking free.

[The Magic Pudding]

Perhaps they are government funded and can't risk being seen as biased.

If you want to be boring there is always the because they don't exist thing.

[junkyardboy]

are you sure?
how do you know?
did you somehow personally verify that?
demons in the swine had to go somewhere

hock:

(I have always found it weird that Christians (at least in the USA) later adoped the taste for honey baked ham to commemorate the ressurection of their dead Jew).

But possession? Really?

Well, it's still part of the thread, I suppose, the belief in posession, a superstitious practice by the older religious who cannot deal with mental illness with the exception of torturing the victim.

Many years ago, I lived down the road from Gacy, so I can assure you he was a real person, not posessed. Just a sick twisted bastard.

I would think that any religion that embraces a devil, (Christianity and Islam come to mind), a belief in a supernatural being who rebels against the creator and then is given carte blanche to do all the evil he wants, making god evil by his permitting of this to occur by extension (in American legal terms - depraved indifference), should cause it's membership to reevaluate their connection to such an out of date practice.

It's amazing that Christians will point out the lunacy of the koran, Muslims will not accept the divinity of Jesus, and by extension, dismiss the Christian texts as nonsense that make mention of that, the Jews hold that the Koran and Christian texts are certainly flawed and man-made texts. And yet these very same members do not apply their own logic that they use to disprove other religions against their own.



Devils and demons? Sure "Supernatural" and "The Walking Dead" are fun fiction for some, (if devils, why not zombies?), but nobody watching that takes it seriously (I hope!). And many of these same people will later speak of some recent atrocity in the news and of their hope that so-and-so burns for all eternity in hell.

I am a rational human being, meaning I don't need 10 (or so) commandments to tell me that killing is bad. And I don't need the fear of eternal damnation from some uncaring creator to force me to do good. Secular society did that for me already.

possession really

who is to say allah won't appear to you?

[The Grand Nudger]

Allah, apparently, is the one who says that. My heart is hardened buddy, my eyes are closed, etc.



Truth be told, sounds more like a blessing than a curse to me, but to each his own.