What Sacrifice ?

[Cinjin]

The sacrifice is the suffering endured. He died at the hands of the very people that he was trying to save. In this, he had to unnecessarily humble himself and live with people he calls his own while watching them cheat each other, beat each other, and promote their own superiority, and all sort of depravity. Specifically on the crucifixion, he was denied by his best friend, beaten, heckled, spit on, forced to work till he collapsed, nailed to a cross, had the wrath of the Father upon him, then died of suffocation and fatigue. Then, he stayed dead for a while. That was the sacrifice. He suffered, yet he is God. He did this without sinning while in the Mosaic Covenant.

Resurrection is the gift to us. That whole passion bit wasn't just for fun. Jesus is resurrected, and therefore gets to bring those of faith (does not mean knowledge of western metaphysical thought on an Unmoved mover) to the Father for purification and everlasting life.

Greasy sophistry. There is no sacrifice. For fucks sake, Jesus didn't even get a single bone broken in his body! What a joke. As if being spit on, heckled, or god-forbid, betrayed by a friend can count as a sacrifice worthy of saving the entire human race, let alone a death that doesn't even last for a full three days. Cast Jesus into Hell for a trillion years and maybe I'll consider his actions worthy of the term, sacrifice.

I've expressed what scripture says on this subject, I see no reason to rehash what you are not going to consider, your intent of the subjects you bring up are a waste time for the most part.

o GC, that hurts me. I think it should be fair around here. Why should you be the only one who gets to waste everybody's time???

And where is the sacrifice?
He puts up with a bit of abuse for three days and then goes to heaven, which he knew was going to happen anyway.
Mere mortals on the hand have endured years of torture for their beliefs(frequently at the hands of the church).
Now if jesus had offered to take the place of even one sinner in hell THAT would have been a true sacrifice.
This is nothing.

Exactly Zen. "Hey god, sacrifice your eternal soul. Let Jesus spend an eternity in hell the way you cast everyone else there. In fact, if you'd like I'll die on the cross for the sins of the world if it means I get to spend the next 2000 years as the supreme overlord of the ultimate paradise." Yeah yeah ... big fucking sacrifice.
Meanwhile, what is three days of mild suffering to a dude that can walk on water? I'm thinkin any real deity can, as they say, go painless.

And yet through it all, He continued to love all of mankind, including His tormentors. Amazing!

You sure about that?? It's been over 2000 years and it's starting to look like he may not be coming back Chaddo. Maybe ole Jesus decided to say "fuck you" and simply keep heaven to himself.

[Tex]

How can I not want to be around something I don't believe exists?

I'm describing Christian afterlife. We're assuming Christianity since the question was "how was there even a sacrifice?". This relates. If you'd like, I can give a proof, but I'm sure you have either heard it before or would dismiss it immediately due to presuppositions.

What if I want to die?

You don't. You might despise your current situation and see death as a way out, but you really want the situation to be better.

If it's that important, why must I believe what you say?
Why can't the guy show itself to all?
Why is it that people in remote parts of the world only came to know about this Jesus/Yahweh thing from previous believers? Why didn't the thing present itself all over the world?
Why the requirement for human vessels for this knowledge?
Why the requirement of belief?

PS: don't say "free will". Give a proper answer.

Five questions, five answers.

1. Because refusing God will suck later.
2. He does, just not directly. Direct appearances will happen at resurrection, but because of sin, he took that away. Even when Jesus was on earth, he didn't show directly (ok, he did once to 3 of the apostles, but it was not a physical show, but an old fashion vision/dream. Then, on top of that, they didn't understand). Most importantly, he doesn't simply want us to comply, he wants us to desire compliance. God will not violate our freedom to choose.
3. You don't need that. The person doesn't even have to have a concept of "God" for salvation. There are "transcendentals" (philosophy, not religion now) that God literally is. These are Beauty, Order, Good, True, and Being/Existence. They don't need to worship God with the words "I worship Jesus" or any of that, but they need "a reverence for God indirectly". So, if one reveres (inward disposition as "higher good") sinlessness (the Good), but doesn't know about the Christian God, as long as any errors they may had are not held on to with pride but changed with humility, they're good to go at resurrection. However, if one is ultimately selfish and has never heard of the Christian God, they are not revering the Good. They require some other reverence (Order, Beauty, Truth, Being).
4. I'm assuming you mean bodies. If that's not the case, correct me. We get bodies because they are fundamentally good. They allow for physical sensation, thoughts, interaction, and just about everything. Without a body, a soul doesn't do much.
5. "God" is a title, not an actual name, but we use it so because YHWH is all we know. If YHWH is not your God, then you are either distorting the proper relationship (God and worshiper) or denying the relationship altogether. If belief=trust like I said, the relationship will be proper.

Finally, I don't know what other term I'm supposed to use for "free will". I mean free will. I mean there is a soul that allows the control of actions and dispositions (although not desires) in human beings.

So he had the wrath of...himself? Does it actually say he deliberately tortures himself or is this pure speculation?

The two I like are John 3:36

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

and Romans 3:23-25

...for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.

Summary: Jesus made propitiation (appeasement) to the Father for all people, believers and unbelievers. This means the offenses against God and man (sins) for everyone past, present, and future were suffered for. Again, this is not just a physical suffering.

Greasy sophistry. There is no sacrifice. For fucks sake, Jesus didn't even get a single bone broken in his body! What a joke. As if being spit on, heckled, or god-forbid, betrayed by a friend can count as a sacrifice worthy of saving the entire human race, let alone a death that doesn't even last for a full three days. Cast Jesus into Hell for a trillion years and maybe I'll consider his actions worthy of the term, sacrifice.

I'm glad you read what I wrote... Remember the part where I said, "If this was all just physical, I'm sure people have had things worse, but this is not just about pain sensors or psychological damage."

[Baalzebutt]

What if I want to die?

You don't. You might despise your current situation and see death as a way out, but you really want the situation to be better.

Wow. Just...Wow.

I have never read a more arrogant statement in my life.

How would you presume to know ANYTHING about me?

Let me make this very fucking clear: I DO NOT BELIEVE YOUR GOD EXISTS.

I am not angry at him. I do not reject him out of pride. I do not reject him because I want to live a heathen life. I do not want to spend eternity with him. I do not fear him. I do not revere or worship him. I do not admire him. I do not wish to have a relationship with him. I do not pray to him. I do not blame him.

I DO NOT BELIEVE YOUR GOD EXISTS.

Is that clear enough?

Stop trying to imply that I actually believe in your god but I just don't want to admit it.

And don't ever try to put words in my mouth or tell me what I actually believe and feel again.

[Tex]

My statement wasn't even about God, so quit it. I am very well aware that you do not believe my God exists. I was talking about psychology.

No one actually wants to die. They might view death as a way out of the shit that is being thrown at them, but they don't actually want death, they want the situation to be better and see death as a removal of the bad. If the bad things were taken away, the person would no longer "want death" because there would be no reason. If the person is elderly, they might "want death", but really its about how they are slowly becoming more burdensome. They don't want death, they want to never be a burden.

Basically, no one thinks death is a good thing for themselves, they use it as a means to an end.

[rexbeccarox]

Damn, but it pisses me off when people tell me what I believe, know, or feel. Fuck off, tex.

[Minimalist]

The sacrifice is the suffering endured. He died at the hands of the very people that he was trying to save. In this, he had to unnecessarily humble himself and live with people he calls his own while watching them cheat each other, beat each other, and promote their own superiority, and all sort of depravity. Specifically on the crucifixion, he was denied by his best friend, beaten, heckled, spit on, forced to work till he collapsed, nailed to a cross, had the wrath of the Father upon him, then died of suffocation and fatigue. Then, he stayed dead for a while. That was the sacrifice. He suffered, yet he is God. He did this without sinning while in the Mosaic Covenant.

Resurrection is the gift to us. That whole passion bit wasn't just for fun. Jesus is resurrected, and therefore gets to bring those of faith (does not mean knowledge of western metaphysical thought on an Unmoved mover) to the Father for purification and everlasting life.

Docetism (dōsēt`ĭzəm) [Gr.,=to appear], early heretical trend in Christian thought. Docetists claimed that Christ was a mere phantasm who only seemed to live and suffer. A similar tendency to deny Jesus' humanity appeared in the teachings of Simon Magus, Marcion, Gnosticism, and certain phases of monarchianism.

But of course the docetists were stamped out by the control freaks as soon as they got the chance.

[pocaracas]

[questions]
PS: don't say "free will". Give a proper answer.

Five questions, five answers.

Well, you did your best to avoid the free will argument. Well done!
However.... you opened the next obvious questions...
(I've put my questions right before your answers in the next quote so we can see them better)

If it's that important, why must I believe what you say?

1. Because refusing God will suck later.

How would you know that?

Why can't the guy show itself to all?

2. He does, just not directly. Direct appearances will happen at resurrection, but because of sin, he took that away. Even when Jesus was on earth, he didn't show directly (ok, he did once to 3 of the apostles, but it was not a physical show, but an old fashion vision/dream. Then, on top of that, they didn't understand). Most importantly, he doesn't simply want us to comply, he wants us to desire compliance. God will not violate our freedom to choose.

How would you know that?

Why is it that people in remote parts of the world only came to know about this Jesus/Yahweh thing from previous believers? Why didn't the thing present itself all over the world?

3. You don't need that. The person doesn't even have to have a concept of "God" for salvation. There are "transcendentals" (philosophy, not religion now) that God literally is. These are Beauty, Order, Good, True, and Being/Existence. They don't need to worship God with the words "I worship Jesus" or any of that, but they need "a reverence for God indirectly". So, if one reveres (inward disposition as "higher good") sinlessness (the Good), but doesn't know about the Christian God, as long as any errors they may had are not held on to with pride but changed with humility, they're good to go at resurrection. However, if one is ultimately selfish and has never heard of the Christian God, they are not revering the Good. They require some other reverence (Order, Beauty, Truth, Being).

And how would you know all that?
Why the Jesuits? Why is it that christians (and practically all other religions) want to reach out and let everyone know about this religion?

Why the requirement for human vessels for this knowledge?

4. I'm assuming you mean bodies. If that's not the case, correct me. We get bodies because they are fundamentally good. They allow for physical sensation, thoughts, interaction, and just about everything. Without a body, a soul doesn't do much.

I meant people. Why is it that people have to keep convincing other people about the existence of this divinity?
If only the deity could handle that part...

Why the requirement of belief?

5. "God" is a title, not an actual name, but we use it so because YHWH is all we know. If YHWH is not your God, then you are either distorting the proper relationship (God and worshiper) or denying the relationship altogether. If belief=trust like I said, the relationship will be proper.

I don't see how your reply follows from my question, but ok.... I must be in some sleep deprived state...
YHWH is not my god.... I have no god. Even if there was only one god, the concept of "having a god" shouldn't make any sense.... but humans have different opinions about the divine entities, leading to "having" different gods... clearly a man-made proposition, no?

Finally, I don't know what other term I'm supposed to use for "free will". I mean free will. I mean there is a soul that allows the control of actions and dispositions (although not desires) in human beings.

Well, I think the workings of our brains are deterministic, being heavily based on genetics, upbringing and any information that arrives to them at every moment of our lives. With all the billions of neurons and possible connections between them, we are left with a brain as a very complex machine, which leads to the appearance of what you call "free will", or "soul" as a separate entity from the brain itself.

[Tex]

The Docetists, Manicheans, Sabellians, Gnostics, Arians, and all the other heresies were not held by those with education. This would be like those in the modern day that argue that abortion is ok because the fetus is not human. Well of course it's human! check it's genetic code! And, when a biologist speaks out in favor of maintaining legal abortion, they will never uses this argument. Ever. You can call it a parasite or cancer or whatever, but "human" is really really bad science. The common philosophical argument for maintaining legal abortion is that the fetus is "not a member of the moral society".

[Faith No More]

I'm describing Christian afterlife. We're assuming Christianity since the question was "how was there even a sacrifice?". This relates. If you'd like, I can give a proof, but I'm sure you have either heard it before or would dismiss it immediately due to presuppositions.

Please, don't tell me what I would or wouldn't dismiss. It's a pet-peeve of mine.

Yes, we are assuming Christianity, but that doesn't explain how someone who doesn't believe is making a willful choice to go to hell. I am actually interested in your answer.

(If your answer is quite long, we can start a new thread, because it's not on topic.)

[Baalzebutt]

Please, don't tell me what I would or wouldn't dismiss. It's a pet-peeve of mine.

Yes, we are assuming Christianity, but that doesn't explain how someone who doesn't believe is making a willful choice to go to hell. I am actually interested in your answer.

(If your answer is quite long, we can start a new thread, because it's not on topic.)

This should be good.

Here is my prediction: You are making a willful choice for hell because you have heard the word of god and chose not to believe it. Therefore, you have chosen not to accept god which is the same as choosing to go to hell.

Wanna take bets?