Are you for or against the separation of church and state?

[smax]

A Christian senator that believes abortion is wrong should not have to put his belief aside for voting.

Have to disagree with you, here, and I think this is where the real meat of the discussion lies.

This senator should have to put his belief aside for voting. Because, if he doesn't, then he is not truly honoring and representing the separation of church and state.

If he has sound reasons to vote against abortion, then by all means, do so. But be prepared to support those reasons without any use or reference to your religion.

You simply cannot have religious influence in government.

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What is observable should speak for itself, the more God is displaced in this country the worse things have gotten. When I was growing up we didn't lock our doors at night and when my parents sent me and my sister to school, they never considered we would be harmed. I could go on and on, but I believe everyone understands what I'm saying.

Religion has never served to protect people or improve living conditions. In fact, the opposite is true. Religion threatens human life and worsens living conditions.

[Godscreated]

Yeah, in my private Christian school, we had all that you just explained. I also got my knuckles beaten for being left handed, and the headmaster had a paddle with holes in it hanging conveniently above his desk which he was known to use exclusively on bare butts for every possible transgression. My school was K-12, and the headmaster seemed to prefer it when teenaged girls were the ones who got into trouble.

Hm.. I guess you're right, godschild, that is WAY better.

I went to a public school and students in general were treated fair, I did not describe anything like you did, for all I know you're making that stuff up, what I said is recorded in history.

[rexbeccarox]

Yeah, in my private Christian school, we had all that you just explained. I also got my knuckles beaten for being left handed, and the headmaster had a paddle with holes in it hanging conveniently above his desk which he was known to use exclusively on bare butts for every possible transgression. My school was K-12, and the headmaster seemed to prefer it when teenaged girls were the ones who got into trouble.

Hm.. I guess you're right, godschild, that is WAY better.

I went to a public school and students in general were treated fair, I did not describe anything like you did, for all I know you're making that stuff up, what I said is recorded in history.

No they weren't... unless all the students in your school happened to be Christian, or they had prayers for all religions represented in your school. Either way, prayer in school goes against separation of church and state, so your point is moot because separation is a right we have as Americans.

Also, I couldn't care less if you believe me or not, but do you doubt that when I was in elementary school twenty some-odd years ago, the things I described happened?

[festive1]

I was bored and did some Googling. Most crime stats you find look from 1950 to the present, and definitely around the 50's crime was at a low. But check this out:
sited from: http://blogs.berkeley.edu/2010/06/16/a-c...n-america/
Violent crime is just a wee bit higher now than it was during the period beginning about 1940 until 1965 or so. Pre-WWII violent crime was about as prevalent as it was in the 80's and 90's and is now once again trending downwards.
Statistics on teen pregnancy and violent crime are recorded history, not your perceptions of some idyllic bygone era, GC.

[Ryantology]

Heh, and the spike of crime in the '20s is directly the fault of Christian Temperance movements, so it's hard to argue that deeper religious influence has a net positive effect on morality.

[Godscreated]

What is observable should speak for itself, the more God is displaced in this country the worse things have gotten. When I was growing up we didn't lock our doors at night and when my parents sent me and my sister to school, they never considered we would be harmed. I could go on and on, but I believe everyone understands what I'm saying.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_th..._over_time

Doesn't mention God anywhere.

You expected a secular publication to mention God, are you that naive. look these up and read what was said and not said during these trials.
Engel v Vitale yr. 1962
Murray (O'Hair) v Curlett yr. 1963
Abington Township School District v Schempp yr. 1963

After you have finished reading them (that's if you're even serious) go look on the site you posted and see when the crime rate took a jump, that's right 1964, maybe then you'll see the lie wiki is promoting.

---

You need to look into the recent history of this country. When I was going to school we had daily prayer, the Bible was read to students in class, the Ten Commandments hung on the wall, children were learning the value of others. By the time I was in high school most of this had been removed from schools and it was telling, not so much with my age group, but the ones coming in behind us. Now kids are killing kids and teachers and principals. When a girl got pregnant she left school to have the baby, why, because it was an embarrassment to her and her family. Now nurseries are set up in school. I do not expect you to understand, we come from very different times, but to be honest seeing what was and what is, I really believe what was, was much better. I do not believe the government should be controlled by the church, that's exactly what the founders wanted to make sure of, and that never happened, even before God was removed.

Bud, take off your nostalgia glasses and actually look at the world; for example, I don't know about where you are, but where I am, those girls who got pregnant and left school to have their baby sometimes had those kids forcibly adopted without their consent. And I'm being very charitable and avoiding the misogynistic "embarrassment to her family" line, which is objectively just crap spackle.

Every generation is absolutely sure that things were better in theirs, but even if we were to take your claim as true, it only goes back a certain length of time; once we get back to the point of theocratic violence- otherwise known as maximum god- things start to get worse.

Boston, today you idiot.

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When a girl got pregnant she left school to have the baby, why, because it was an embarrassment to her and her family. Now nurseries are set up in school. I do not expect you to understand, we come from very different times, but to be honest seeing what was and what is, I really believe what was, was much better. I do not believe the government should be controlled by the church, that's exactly what the founders wanted to make sure of, and that never happened, even before God was removed.

Well… There's this:
http://www.thenationalcampaign.org/resou...0-2006.pdf
See that lovely spike of teenage pregnancy from about 1948 until around 1961? Yeah… teen pregnancy rates have fallen since then, in fact they are currently lower than at any other point on the chart. I understand that it was a "simpler time" and teens were forced to marry if they got pregnant, people tended to get married earlier, etc. But still, the rate is lower than it was back in the "good old days." Thank you, birth control.

The mass murder of unborn children are the only reason, if the abortions were added to today's teen pregnancy rate you would definitely have a higher rate. You should be ashamed of trying to deceive others, all things need to be taken into account. Killing children is part of the problem not a solution.

---

I sometimes think people from an older generation don't realize how much more we communicate and have access to the happenings in the country, making it seem like things happen MORE even if they actually happen LESS, simply because we can actually see it and it doesn't get hushed up.

I believe that people today just want to bury their heads in the sand or take what they believe is the easy way out. They say hey it's not happening to me, I couldn't care less, is today's attitude. There is more revealed today and that can be a good thing, most today do not even care.

---

You need to look into the recent history of this country. When I was going to school we had daily prayer, the Bible was read to students in class, the Ten Commandments hung on the wall, children were learning the value of others. By the time I was in high school most of this had been removed from schools and it was telling, not so much with my age group, but the ones coming in behind us. Now kids are killing kids and teachers and principals. When a girl got pregnant she left school to have the baby, why, because it was an embarrassment to her and her family. Now nurseries are set up in school. I do not expect you to understand, we come from very different times, but to be honest seeing what was and what is, I really believe what was, was much better. I do not believe the government should be controlled by the church, that's exactly what the founders wanted to make sure of, and that never happened, even before God was removed.

Yeah, back in the day, life was pretty sweet if you were white, Christian, straight, and working class. It's too bad that your anecdotal idea of the world in which you grew up is artificial.

When you were going to school, while you had children indoctrinated in your evil superstitions, you also had women, blacks, and gays excluded from much of society, when Christian-inspired racism, sexism, and homophobia ran rampant. But hey, good for you, whitey.

Love it guy no other argument than the Christians did it, why don't you come back to reality.

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What is observable should speak for itself, the more God is displaced in this country the worse things have gotten. When I was growing up we didn't lock our doors at night and when my parents sent me and my sister to school, they never considered we would be harmed. I could go on and on, but I believe everyone understands what I'm saying.

Religion has never served to protect people or improve living conditions. In fact, the opposite is true. Religion threatens human life and worsens living conditions.

Really, you must have failed U.S. History.

---

I went to a public school and students in general were treated fair, I did not describe anything like you did, for all I know you're making that stuff up, what I said is recorded in history.

No they weren't... unless all the students in your school happened to be Christian, or they had prayers for all religions represented in your school. Either way, prayer in school goes against separation of church and state, so your point is moot because separation is a right we have as Americans.

Also, I couldn't care less if you believe me or not, but do you doubt that when I was in elementary school twenty some-odd years ago, the things I described happened?

No I do not doubt those things happened, that was common place in Catholic Schools when I was growing up, that proves nothing. I believe I and the people who went to school back when are the living authorities about that time, you do not get to write our history, we made it, it belongs to us and we've written it with our lives.

---

I was bored and did some Googling. Most crime stats you find look from 1950 to the present, and definitely around the 50's crime was at a low. But check this out:
sited from: http://blogs.berkeley.edu/2010/06/16/a-c...n-america/
Violent crime is just a wee bit higher now than it was during the period beginning about 1940 until 1965 or so. Pre-WWII violent crime was about as prevalent as it was in the 80's and 90's and is now once again trending downwards.
Statistics on teen pregnancy and violent crime are recorded history, not your perceptions of some idyllic bygone era, GC.

Your little graph does not look like the one the summerqueen brought up.

---

Heh, and the spike of crime in the '20s is directly the fault of Christian Temperance movements, so it's hard to argue that deeper religious influence has a net positive effect on morality.

You are seriously one sick person, the Christians did not commit the crimes, the law was the law and those who did not like it broke it. My father lived during those years, I have first hand knowledge of the times. Because he saw what happened during the twenties, he made a statement to me before he died. He said soon there will be an event similar to the great depression, I asked him how he could know that, his answer, nothings changed man's doing the same thing now that lead to the disaster of '29.' His take, money corrupts and can corrupt completely.

[festive1]

Well… There's this:
http://www.thenationalcampaign.org/resou...0-2006.pdf
See that lovely spike of teenage pregnancy from about 1948 until around 1961? Yeah… teen pregnancy rates have fallen since then, in fact they are currently lower than at any other point on the chart. I understand that it was a "simpler time" and teens were forced to marry if they got pregnant, people tended to get married earlier, etc. But still, the rate is lower than it was back in the "good old days." Thank you, birth control.

The mass murder of unborn children are the only reason, if the abortions were added to today's teen pregnancy rate you would definitely have a higher rate. You should be ashamed of trying to deceive others, all things need to be taken into account. Killing children is part of the problem not a solution.

I'll check the rates of teen abortions. But I have a question: You seriously don't think the teen pregnancy rate dropping from a high of 96.3 teen births per 1,000 to 41.5 per 1,000 in 2008 (amongst teens ages 15-19) is solely caused by abortion, do you? What about the factors of birth control and more open sex ed? I don't think all that social outcasting and praying stopped anyone from getting pregnant, birth control and education did.

I was bored and did some Googling. Most crime stats you find look from 1950 to the present, and definitely around the 50's crime was at a low. But check this out:
sited from: http://blogs.berkeley.edu/2010/06/16/a-c...n-america/
Violent crime is just a wee bit higher now than it was during the period beginning about 1940 until 1965 or so. Pre-WWII violent crime was about as prevalent as it was in the 80's and 90's and is now once again trending downwards.
Statistics on teen pregnancy and violent crime are recorded history, not your perceptions of some idyllic bygone era, GC.

Your little graph does not look like the one the summerqueen brought up.

Here, I'll help you.
Summer's 1st graph is property crime rates from 1960 to 2010, per 100,000 Americans.
Summer's 2nd graph is Violent Crime Rates by Gender from 1973 to 2003, per 1,000 Americans.
In contrast, the graph I posted is Homicides from 1900 to 2006, per 100,000 Americans.
The graphs do not look alike, because they are measuring different things and on different scales. Summer's graph on violent crime, probably includes assaults, rapes, and the like, as well as being broken down by gender, and on a scale of per 1,000 Americans. My graph is just homicides, not broken down by gender, and on a scale of per 100,000 Americans. They look different because they're measuring apples and oranges. Doesn't change the fact that my graph shows the 1920's homicide rate was almost as prevalent as it was in the 1980's and 90's, and that homicide rates are currently trending downward, though they still remain about 1 point higher than they were in the immediate post-WWII period. During the earlier period the rate was somewhere around 4.5-5 murders per 100,000 Americans, now the rate is around 6 per 100,000.

[thesummerqueen]

A "secular" site that can be edited but is also checked by thousands of other people for accuracy as well as being told when they have to cite sources. But they're promoting a lie. Because they don't want to mention the Bible, no doubt, or cite lack of god for a reason for anything bad happening.

The people who bury their heads in the sand are the religotards who insist that 'God' is the answer, except I don't see god handing out money to the needy, or fixing city utilities to make things better, or curing the sick or rehabilitating the violent.

[Whateverist]

a
The people who bury their heads in the sand are ..

.. understandable in a way.

As you say there is so much information coming from so many places that it can really be overwhelming. Shutting it all out would be a mistake but it is probably adaptive to control how much you dwell on it. It can't be healthy to be in a heightened state of alarm or irritation all the time.

[thesummerqueen]

As you say there is so much information coming from so many places that it can really be overwhelming.

One thing that irritates the shit out of me is that schools do not include classes on how to actually sort through information and tell the good from the bad - especially now when we have access to most of human knowledge via the internet. Critical thinking skills are more important than ever.