Is it egotistical to think that a God would die for you?

[smax]

What you are suggesting is that the Bible somehow multiplies the value of humanity.

I actually have no problem with the value of human life being great. I value it that way.

However, I'm not an advocate of stories being invented which suggest that the entire point of the universe is the struggle of human beings.

That's ridiciulous in my view.

In the same Bible, humans are at many times helpless at the will of God.
What the Bible does is put humans in place, taking our strengths and our weaknesses, and makes us who we are: masters, indeed, but masters of the created world, and components of the created world who are as much subject to the laws of nature as animals are.
It takes something outside of the created world to show us that we are not the end-all. There is something above us.
Without religion, actually, humans are the greatest things that exist and have nothing to heed to.

I agree that the Bible mixes both extreme human importance with a blatant disregard for human life at the same time.

But, the grand theme is that human beings are the centerpiece of the universe, and that is ridiculous.

[CleanShavenJesus]

I never answered the thread title. Uh, yes it absolutely fucking is. The idea that we're the special ones, that we're the ones the Earth revolves around is egotistical and ignorant. All we are is an annoying-ass disease to the Earth. We've only been here for literally 0.004% of the Earth's history. We're nothing to it. There's no reason the universe revolves around humans.

God comes down AS Jesus to die on a cross. In another sense, God sends Jesus, who willingly performs the task. Jesus exists in unison with God, he is not an celestial being doing him a favor.
Jesus is fully human and divine. Being human, Jesus lives a full human life as the son of Mary. He is also the revelation of God himself. That is why Jesus calls himself a 'Son of God' as well as the 'Son of Man'. He is where the human meets the divine and brings them together again by conquering the sin that set them apart.

Okay, so they're not the same thing.

Yup. I was just trying to make my reply compatible to what Greatest said. He wanted to talk about God and Jesus as different people, so I went along with it, since they ARE different natures of one person.

If they are different natures of the same thing, Jesus would not be able to be his own independent person.

[The Grand Nudger]

First of all, Jesus Christ existed as a historical figure. Plenty of historians say so.

Ad pop, I think that I'd like to see their evidence.

Dying on a cross? My evidence is that Christianity came to be the religion of millions when it started out surrounded by devout Jews who savagely killed its followers, and spread across the Roman Empire, despite that many more of it followers were killed as well.

Most often by other followers of the same religion of peace. This fabulous upstart story is as fictitious as the narrative it spawned from. Let's see some evidence?

Whatever these people preached, it had to be something worth listening to, and something worth believing as well, since so many people died for it.

Many people have died (and killed) for many things - most of them not something that you'd call "worth listening to" I'd wager.

It would take quite the conspiracy to make that stuff up.

Apparently not, you seem to have bought it hook line and sinker - and I;m guessing that you didn;t take much convincing eh? How hard could it be?

If Jesus Christ HAD been a story, it would have made as little sense to first century Jews and Romans as it does to you.

It did make little sense to the first folks who came into contact with.

In Jesus' time, gods didn't love people. And if they ever were on earth, they didn't die.

Of course gods loved people, sometimes they "really really" loved them. Gods also die. There are entire "sacrificial pantheons" in the world buddy.

So I also believe in the Christian story because it is so original.

Really? I find it difficult to see what might be original about a stolen god narrative.

[Consilius]

What Jesus did is wipe the slate clean. He took sin upon himself and it died with him on a cross. The alternative is that we suffer for our own sins.
God doesn't do magic. The universe is subject to laws and he works within the laws he created. He can't just "let it go". If he did, he wouldn't be a master, he'd just be a pushover. The 'gift' part is that he decided to get rid of the sin himself, instead of making humans pay for what they had done.
Jesus' mission was an act of justice. Consider justice this way: a murderer is truly sorry for what he did. Do we let him go, or do we make him pay the price for his crimes?

[The Grand Nudger]

I don't see any evidence of jesus having done anything - but more importantly, how this could even be achieved is left a mystery. I'll keep my own actions and their consequences - the good and the bad, thank you. This whole sin business is less than wrong - it's meaningless. No magic? So I guess magic is off the table now as a mechanism for this whole taking up of "sins" as well.

It's clear that we're working from a vastly different idea of what the word justice means. I'd call the non-event you're describing an act of depravity and injustice. Punishing one for the sins of another? Withholding consequence n one by the virtue of the actions of another? That doesn't fly here, in our system of justice. Why would I hold a god to a lesser standard than I hold men?

A murderer being truly sorry does not expatiate the consequences of his actions. He serves a sentence. "Not guilty" is what gets you off the hook, not "really, really sorry".

[Minimalist]

I can't take Bill Maher seriously. He is an atheist comedian. His job is to make other atheists feel better about themselves by bagging on Christians, not to present an actual argument.

Says the guy who recaps the silly argument and then swears it is real.

It's a good thing we have people like Maher telling you idiots off.

Now, for the next generation.....

[ideologue08]

Bill Maher sucks Obama's balls dry. He's a stooge, but then again his whole show is designed to project only one message; Hate religion vigorously (except Judaism of course), but back Obama.

[Minimalist]

Fuck off.

[ideologue08]

Ok, that ipod one is pretty funny, it's way off the mark though. But haters gonna hate. That cartoon guy has Maher's nose haha

[Dena]

What Jesus did is wipe the slate clean. He took sin upon himself and it died with him on a cross. The alternative is that we suffer for our own sins.
God doesn't do magic. The universe is subject to laws and he works within the laws he created.

The laws of the universe do not require a human being to die in order that other human beings to not burn for eternity. This is delusional thinking.

Consider justice this way: a murderer is truly sorry for what he did. Do we let him go, or do we make him pay the price for his crimes?

We keep him in jail so he can't murder anyone else. This is a far cry from the Christian idea that humans suffer for eternity for their sin or that some god-man had to die so some of them wouldn't have to suffer.