Attn: Christians, We've Heard Them Already

[JesusIsAlive]

Jesus is Alive

As I was blessed with a vision of Himself the day of my baptism. During Communion while placing the bread into my mouth. I saw nothing but blue sky which was well lighten. I notice that the vision began to move backwards. As it moved I began to see the top of a man's head. As it continued it's movement I said in my thoughts Jesus. Jesus stood on what seem to be a mountain. He wore a white robe, very powerful in whiteness as white as snow. His hair was a very dark brown, neatly going back, and which hung just inches past His shoulders. Jesus stood there with both arms stretched out from side to side horizontally. The vision began to move again directing my attention to neatly shaped and carved stones which were embedded in the mountain, beautifully brown in color. I seem to be focused on one. Surrounding these brown stones were bluish green plant like a garden. The vision then moved back on Jesus. If you have ever watched a movie on 3D that is how this vision was. It was not of this age and time. I cannot tell you of how His feet looked or even His hands. I cannot tell you of how His face looked for He stood in the front of me. I could only see the back of Him. It is probably why the vision moved backwards. To shield me. I felt as if I was behind a rock or something looking on. He was right in front of me. I tell all who do not believe. Please repent! He is alive and has made me anew. He delivered me from the chains and Bondage of this world. He lives within me and I love Him and give Him all praise and glory, and I thank Him for His wonderful works and excellent ways. He loves us all. Therefore everybody love Him back. He died for our salvation. For our freedom yet mankind uses this freedom to disobey Him. I urge you brothers and sisters in Christ, surrender, yield and obey. For the time is very near.

[fr0d0]

Christians do what humans do. Following Christ can't be opposing Christ.

And following christ is a works based thing, not a beliefs based one?

By their fruits shall you know them

Just because a person believes in God doesn't mean they will act in accordance with that belief.

[Esquilax]

By their fruits shall you know them

Just because a person believes in God doesn't mean they will act in accordance with that belief.

But does that make them any less of a christian?

And what if they think they are acting in accordance with christian values? What if they just know something you don't? What if they're right, and you're wrong? How can you tell?

[Angrboda]

Hitler did have a history with the Church, but I see it not that he believed, but that he used the beliefs of the Christian majority in Germany to achieve his own goals...

People seem to want to believe that people can have only one primary motivation for their actions, or one overriding purpose. The fact is, people can have multiple, even conflicting motivations for their actions, all operating simultaneously. To insist that Hitler was motivated by supernaturalism or politics or ambition to the exclusion of Christian purposes is to ignore both the complexity of human motivation, as well as the degree to which political motivations as well as supernaturalism are compatible with Christianity. It's said that Hitler was monomaniacal, but he likely was possessed of complex motivations just as anyone else. To suggest that he was pursuing political or other goals to the exclusion of Christian ones is to misunderstand both motivation itself and Christianity. (And no, I don't need another "No True Scotsman" argument, thank you.)

The truth is that Christianity, perhaps excluding your divinely sanctioned variant of it, is quite compatible with, and even consonant with, many motivations which result in palpable evil.

(For those interested, the OSS did a psychological profile of Hitler after the war, and that report is available at Nizkor, . I don't recall it dealing specifically with religion, however.)

[ideologue08]

The truth is that Christianity, perhaps excluding your divinely sanctioned variant of it, is quite compatible with, and even consonant with, many motivations which result in palpable evil.

So is atheism. Point is...?

[Tonus]

So is atheism. Point is...?

If one is as capable of evil as the other it argues against the existence of god, doesn't it?

[ideologue08]

If one is as capable of evil as the other it argues against the existence of god, doesn't it?

I'm talking about human beings, I mean they were talking about Hitler, even if Hitler was a Christian, what does that prove? That 'Christianity' is capable of evil? What does that even mean? Surely a more accurate term is "Christians are capable of evil", that's why it's confusing. The ideology itself cannot kill anything, it's the followers that do it.

[Angrboda]

The truth is that Christianity, perhaps excluding your divinely sanctioned variant of it, is quite compatible with, and even consonant with, many motivations which result in palpable evil.

So is atheism. Point is...?

My point being that Hitler having and being motivated by other things besides Christian beliefs and aims does not preclude him as also having been motivated by Christian ones.

[ideologue08]

My point being that Hitler having and being motivated by other things besides Christian beliefs and aims does not preclude him as also having been motivated by Christian ones.

That's fine and dandy but then you went on to say: Christianity... is quite compatible with, and even consonant with, many motivations which result in palpable evil.

Now, when you say this, are you referring to Christians, or the actual religion Christianity? The former is obviously is true, as with any other group, but if you're arguing the latter, then you'd have to bring some scriptural evidence or a verdict by the papacy/clergy etc. because that's what the religion is based upon. You cannot use Hitler to argue that the actual religion is compatible with "palpable evil", whatever that means. Evil, of course, isn't objectively defined.

[fr0d0]

But does that make them any less of a christian?

And what if they think they are acting in accordance with christian values? What if they just know something you don't? What if they're right, and you're wrong? How can you tell?

If Ghandi killed people violently would that make him less of a pacifist?

There's the label and then there's the actions which define that label.
I'm a Christian, but sadly most times you wouldn't know it. Even though I wear the label, you couldn't say that most of my actions we're Christ like. Let me generalise: this is most (if not correctly all) Christians. We believe we are flawed and fall short of the glory of God.
So are flawed people who call themselves Christian whilst doing anti Christ stuff, still Christians? Absolutely they are. Are their anti Christ actions Christian... no.

People make mistakes. I could be wrong and another person right in their understanding of what Christ's actions would be. We have some checks for that.