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RE: Did God fire an Angel or Did an Angel just quit?
July 16, 2013 at 1:55 pm
(July 16, 2013 at 1:37 pm)Faith No More Wrote: Hell yes, we could. I'd have to read and familiarize myself with the story more first, but I'd think it'd make a great tale.
Believe it or not, the Bible doesn't provide much in the way of detail on Satan's rebellion or his fall. In fact, Satan makes almost no appearances in the OT and is more a plot device than a character in the new.
In the Genesis, the "snake" is never named as "Satan" nor is there any indication that the snake is in any way supernatural (aside from the talking part). In fact, Genesis specifies that the snake is just a snake, the "most clever" of Yahweh's animals. It's only in Revelation that the serpent is ret-conned into being Satan. Ask the Jews about this. The whole Genesis tale is a "just so" story, later reworked into a grand "fall" of humanity that Jesus would later save us from.
Satan makes an appearance in Job apparently as a member of Yahweh's court. He seems cynical and perhaps is the loyal opposition in his conversations with Yahweh. Nonetheless, he seems welcome to enter and leave Heaven and the conversations between him and Yahweh are cordial, not what you'd expect from bitter arch-enemies, actively at war with each other.
Satan's role in the OT is as the tempter and punisher working for Yahweh. It's only in the NT that he is rec-conned into being the arch-nemesis of Jesus.
Even in the NT, the entire rebellion which is so central to Christian theology is outlined only in vague symbolism of Revelation (where the dragon, symbolizing Satan, grabs a third of the stars, symbolizing angels, and throws them to the earth, symbolizing their fall).
Most of Satan's story is based more on Christian "fan fictions" like Milton instead of established scripture.
Here's a video series from an articulate atheist named Todd Gates. I highly recommend his channel.
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RE: Did God fire an Angel or Did an Angel just quit?
July 16, 2013 at 2:03 pm
Lack of details could actually be a good thing. It gives you even more room to make god look like a petty dick.
Seeing as how love is a powerful motive and a great plot device, I would be tempted to write it as a conflict over a female angel. God created the perfect woman just for him, but the woman doesn't actually love god back. She just stays with him because he's the boss, and that's what he was created to do. Satan has his eye on her, however, and after some subtle flirting and courting, they fall in love with each other. It's pure, true love that brings them both great joy, but they have to keep it hidden from god. Eventually, the big guy finds out, and he gets angry with Satan. In Satan's defense the woman professes that she truly loves him, and that angers god even more. God kills the woman out of jealousy and banishes Satan to live in misery for eternity.
It might work.
Even if the open windows of science at first make us shiver after the cozy indoor warmth of traditional humanizing myths, in the end the fresh air brings vigor, and the great spaces have a splendor of their own - Bertrand Russell
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RE: Did God fire an Angel or Did an Angel just quit?
July 16, 2013 at 2:55 pm
(July 16, 2013 at 2:03 pm)Faith No More Wrote: Seeing as how love is a powerful motive and a great plot device, I would be tempted to write it as a conflict over a female angel. God created the perfect woman just for him, but the woman doesn't actually love god back. She just stays with him because he's the boss, and that's what he was created to do. Satan has his eye on her, however, and after some subtle flirting and courting, they fall in love with each other. It's pure, true love that brings them both great joy, but they have to keep it hidden from god. Eventually, the big guy finds out, and he gets angry with Satan. In Satan's defense the woman professes that she truly loves him, and that angers god even more. God kills the woman out of jealousy and banishes Satan to live in misery for eternity.
That's pretty good. And it would not seem out of place in the OT.
"Well, evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don't go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's in this century, but apples didn't suspend themselves in midair, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape- like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered."
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RE: Did God fire an Angel or Did an Angel just quit?
July 16, 2013 at 4:32 pm
Satan did not quit. Satan wanted to be God. God got rid of him.
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RE: Did God fire an Angel or Did an Angel just quit?
July 16, 2013 at 4:36 pm
(July 16, 2013 at 4:32 pm)Drich Wrote: Satan did not quit. Satan wanted to be God. God got rid of him.
Chapter and verse, please.
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RE: Did God fire an Angel or Did an Angel just quit?
July 16, 2013 at 4:53 pm
(July 16, 2013 at 4:36 pm)DeistPaladin Wrote: (July 16, 2013 at 4:32 pm)Drich Wrote: Satan did not quit. Satan wanted to be God. God got rid of him.
Chapter and verse, please.
Why does He need to you never supplied any with your accusations, what's good for the goose is good for the gander.
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
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RE: Did God fire an Angel or Did an Angel just quit?
July 16, 2013 at 4:58 pm
(July 16, 2013 at 4:53 pm)Godschild Wrote: Why does He need to you never supplied any with your accusations, what's good for the goose is good for the gander.
Because my story is fiction and presented as such.
He stated it as if it were fact or part of the established canonical story. So where in canon is it found?
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"The trinity can be equated to having your cake and eating it too."
... -Lucent, trying to defend the Trinity concept
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... -Statler Waldorf, Christian apologist
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RE: Did God fire an Angel or Did an Angel just quit?
July 16, 2013 at 5:06 pm
(July 16, 2013 at 4:36 pm)DeistPaladin Wrote: (July 16, 2013 at 4:32 pm)Drich Wrote: Satan did not quit. Satan wanted to be God. God got rid of him.
Chapter and verse, please.
I'll do you one better, not only do you have B,C,andV here is some commentary to go along with it:
http://www.gotquestions.org/Satan-fall.html
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RE: Did God fire an Angel or Did an Angel just quit?
July 16, 2013 at 5:18 pm
(July 16, 2013 at 5:06 pm)Drich Wrote: (July 16, 2013 at 4:36 pm)DeistPaladin Wrote: Chapter and verse, please.
I'll do you one better, not only do you have B,C,andV here is some commentary to go along with it:
http://www.gotquestions.org/Satan-fall.html
You posted that five minutes after posting:
Drich Wrote:There is nothing worse than someone letting a website do all of their thinking and or questioning for them.
Mind you, I don't have a problem with anyone linking to a site for information and corroboration. But the timing makes it funny, and I'm easily entertained.
"Well, evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don't go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's in this century, but apples didn't suspend themselves in midair, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape- like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered."
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RE: Did God fire an Angel or Did an Angel just quit?
July 16, 2013 at 5:54 pm
(July 16, 2013 at 5:18 pm)Tonus Wrote: (July 16, 2013 at 5:06 pm)Drich Wrote: I'll do you one better, not only do you have B,C,andV here is some commentary to go along with it:
http://www.gotquestions.org/Satan-fall.html
You posted that five minutes after posting:
Drich Wrote:There is nothing worse than someone letting a website do all of their thinking and or questioning for them.
Mind you, I don't have a problem with anyone linking to a site for information and corroboration. But the timing makes it funny, and I'm easily entertained.
I said there is nothing worse than letting a web site Do ALL Of Their Thinking For Them. I did not say one can not use websites to answer questions. If a member says he has forty questions and all 40 questions are asked via a link to a web site that someone else set up, then that would be an example of an off the shelf question. Or letting a web site do ALL of the thinking for that person.
Deist used a response that I use when one of you guys says the bible say _________, When I know it doesn't. To proove that point rather than argue it with what someone thinks he knows I ask for Book, Chapter and Verse. When He asked for it He did not know that I worded my orginal response simple enough to be cover what the bible does indeed say, nor does he care. He just wants to see if I can produce the BCV. So I did, and just incase he was genuinly interested I linked him to enough commentary to start a conversation. If not then he is still free to poo poo on what was said and move on. But this way I did not waist any of my time creating commentary for someone who was not truly interested in what was being discussed.
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