The religion of peace at it again!

[pocaracas]

err... aren't all those guys mulsims?
A muslim shooting a muslim to turn him into a muslim.... somethings doesn't sound right, here....

[Ksa]

err... aren't all those guys mulsims?
A muslim shooting a muslim to turn him into a muslim.... somethings doesn't sound right, here....

There's 10% Christians in Syria, he may have been a Christian...I don't know. It was one of these youtube videos that you catch before it's removed forever lol.

[Napoléon]

Do you know that Nelson Mandela, when they imprisoned him, he was called Terrorist #1 by the people who imprisoned him?

That's because he was a terrorist.

Terrorist to whom? To the western interests.

Umm, no, to the people being killed by the terrorists and the general population as a result of the fear induced by such killings.

Terrorist is a meaningless word unless you mention who is being TERRORIZED. The Russians don't feel the same about it. They are friends with Iran.

The word terrorist has rather ironically been hijacked by many governments to promote fear, that much is true. And one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter, but don't kid yourself, these particular people are terrorists.

You know, there are organizations right now who scream and cheer that Nelson Mandela died. They still call him a Terrorist. IS HE?

He was. That's all I'll comment.

It means the RESISTANCE to whatever major government is in place.

No that's not what it means.

Nowhere is it mentioned that the government in place is right, the terrorists might be right like Nelson Mandela was.

They might well be right in what they believe. Is it therefore right and moral to go and kill 80+ people?

No.

We know however that it's not the case with Islam. Islam is wrong. Why? Because their RELIGIOUS motivations are wrong, not because they're called terrorists by CNN. CNN can call anyone a terrorist. It can call you also! Or me!

What are you going on about?

[Ksa]

What are you going on about?

Brother asks a very important question. What am I talking about when I say their RELIGIOUS motivations are wrong. Aka. spreading Islam with an Ak-47, as it is mentioned in Surat Al-Mā'idah 5:32:

"whoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption [done] in the land - it is as if he had slain mankind entirely. And whoever saves one - it is as if he had saved mankind entirely."

"Unless" = you can kill. This gives direct authorization to kill those who bring corruption in the land. What is corruption in the land? It is defined in Surat Ar-Rūm 30:41 which says:

"Corruption has appeared throughout the land and sea by [reason of] what the hands of people have earned so He may let them taste part of [the consequence of] what they have done that perhaps they will return [to righteousness]."

The verse continues:

"Say, [O Muhammad], "Travel through the land and observe how was the end of those before. Most of them were associators [of others with Allah ]."

But Parasti(idol worshipers) and Christians destroy the land. And after that:

"So direct your face toward the correct religion before a Day comes from Allah of which there is no repelling. That Day, they will be divided."

This means that if you die as a Mushrik Allah will never forgive you. Who brings corruption in the land? Those who associate other partners with GOD, aka. Christians and so on. They bring the corruption in the land. Those "reformers" are defined in Surat Al-Baqarah 2:11 which says:

"And when it is said to them, "Do not cause corruption on the earth," they say, "We are but reformers."

Allah even says what the violence victims will tell them! And the verse continues:

"Unquestionably, it is they who are the corrupters, but they perceive [it] not."

IT IS THEY WHO ARE THE CORRUPTORS. And the verse continues:

"And when it is said to them, "Believe as the people have believed," they say, "Should we believe as the foolish have believed?" Unquestionably, it is they who are the foolish, but they know [it] not."

Allah puts words in the mouth of unbelievers without them saying a single word and says it is THEY who are foolish. A Muslim comes to you saying "so you think we are foolish" and you say "what, when did I say that??" he says "it's in the Qur'an, Allah knows best and he warned us that you would try to deceive us". This is the teaching you get when you read this verse and that's how you act in real life as a result of it.

"And when they meet those who believe, they say, "We believe"; but when they are alone with their evil ones, they say, "Indeed, we are with you; we were only mockers.""

This verse spreads hate towards non-Muslims spreading corruption in the land, if you let them get away, they go among themselves and they LAUGH. Surely wouldn't want that to happen as a noble Jihad warrior, RIGHT?

"[But] Allah mocks them and prolongs them in their transgression [while] they wander blindly."

Those people who try to reform and exit the light of Islam are nothing but MOCKERS.

"Deaf, dumb and blind - so they will not return [to the right path]."

You dislike chopping heads to do Jihad and spread the message of Allah? Allah says you dislike what's good for you! Where? Surat Al-Baqarah 2:216 which says:

"Fighting has been enjoined upon you while it is hateful to you. But perhaps you hate a thing and it is good for you; and perhaps you love a thing and it is bad for you. And Allah Knows, while you know not."

You hate killing people? Shut up and go chop their heads off...Allah knows better. You vomit from it? Carry a bag with you, do your job and don't be faithless. Does it ever get more clear then that? Unless you think it's ok to slaughter homosexuals and non-muslims it's hard to disagree.

[Minimalist]

err... aren't all those guys mulsims?
A muslim shooting a muslim to turn him into a muslim.... somethings doesn't sound right, here....

No, no...they aren't the right "kind" of muslim.

Protestants and Catholics used to do the same shit to each other.... and would do so again if given half a chance.

[Rayaan]

Ksa, I read your post, but I do not agree with your paltry exegesis of "corruption in the land." And the verses you quoted does not define that either, as you claim they do.

So, I will quote 5:32 again and then explain what that is according to my understanding, by using the original Arabic at the same time.


Surah 5:32
"Because of that We have decreed upon the Children of Israel that whoever kills a soul for other than a human life [Arabic: nafsan] or corruption in the land [Arabic: fasadin fee al-ardi] - it would be as if he killed all mankind, and if anyone saves a life, it would be as if he saved the life of all mankind."

The verse above brings two exceptions to the rule against killing: The first one is the killing of another human being or soul and the Arabic word used for that is "nafsan" (a "soul" or a "self"). This means that a person who kills another person - i.e. murderer - falls under this exception. The other exception is for those who cause "fasadin fee al-ardi" which means "corruption in the land," or something like "mischief in the land."

The term "fasad" by itself can be translated as corruption, transgression, damage, harm, and/or injury. It generally means corruption or transgression. This term is a little broad and thus one can argue that Muslims can use this term in the Quran to justify any killing for pretty much any kind of "corruption" ... but no, that would be wrong. Why is that wrong? Because the Quran says "corruption in the land" (fasadin fee al-ardi), and in another verse it says "corruption has appeared throughout the land and sea" (as you quoted in your post), so the addition of "throughout the land and sea" after the word "fasad" (corruption) tends to connote a widespread and a physical type of corruption, or one that causes damage to peoples' lives and their property.

In that context, and from other verses in the Quran, the corruption/fasad spoken of is most likely something that causes severe damage to peoples' lives and their property, such as warfare and organized crime against innocent people. So in times like that, killing is allowed in Islam, especially for self-defense. Otherwise, Muslims are not even allowed to harm anyone let alone kill them, as the Quran says, "Thus, if they let you be, and do not make war on you, and offer you peace, Allah does not allow you to harm them" (Surah 4:90).

That being said, there are, however, some different opinions on the term "fasad" and what it's applications are per the Quranic verses.


On a related note, I have also explained some of the "kill the infidel" type of verses in the Quran (which people like you very often quote out of context) in the following post:

http://atheistforums.org/thread-7864-pos...#pid162909

[Ksa]

^ Thanks for info, it's a solid argument. However, you and I are comfortably sitting in a chair in the peace of our home. I can't help to think that when people's thoughts are stirred by war and death, they sort of adopt a more alert interpretation of the verses and don't think as much as we do. Haha, you know, my mother, she gets so stirred up when they search her bag at the airport, I can barely recognize her, I never see her act like that. When you look at her, ha...it makes no sense what she's doing. I can't imagine what she would be like if she saw me with a bullet in my brain lying dead while some guy digs my brains out with a steel bar yelling non-sense.

My point is, your theoretical explanation of the verses is correct. Usually, the term "fasad" means big crime. When does it mean big crime? When Muslims sit at home like us watching TV and being peaceful in their minds. When there's war and people die, their thoughts are stirred up, and then the term "fasad" tends to call more on the fight or flight region of the brain rather then the cognitive region. So they do not apply the same interpretation. And when they do, the rest of the verses sort of fit in...in an unfortunate manner ^.^

[λάθε βιώσας]

religion of peace not. american atheist clean Greece of Islam. Greece is the birth of Western civilization Atheos Greek is part of Islam is not part of Greece. Atheists Greece clean of Islam.

[pocaracas]

Suicide bombing near Shiite school in Syria’s Homs kills 7, incl 5 children

http://rt.com/news/syria-bombing-children-killed-643/

A suicide truck bombing outside a primary school near Syria’s Homs has killed at least 7 people, including five children. Dozens of people have been wounded and several buildings were destroyed by the blast.

The truck exploded outside a compound of schools in the Shiite town of Umm al-Amed, the governor’s office official said. He said rescue operations have been launched in the area.

Conflicting reports of number of casualties have emerged in the aftermath of the attack, with the governor’s office putting a number of dead at 10 and the British-based Syrian Observatory for Human Rights, citing a network of activists on the ground, reported about six killed, saying they do not know yet how many of the dead were children.

There are two workers among those killed. All of the victims are civilians.

Some 34 people have sustained injuries, Itar-Tass news agency reported, citing Suria TV. However, this information could not be independently verified.

[Angrboda]

Since I live in Canada, I also agree that these are terrorist organizations, because they terrorize my own interests but I'm just bringing up the ambiguity of the term.

Blame Canada.