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RE: 5 bombshells some atheists are not aware of
May 2, 2014 at 3:49 am
(This post was last modified: May 2, 2014 at 4:03 am by ManMachine.)
"The greatest deception men suffer is from their own opinions" - Leonardo da Vinci
"I think I use the term “radical” rather loosely, just for emphasis. If you describe yourself as “atheist,” some people will say, “Don’t you mean ‘agnostic’?” I have to reply that I really do mean atheist, I really do not believe that there is a god; in fact, I am convinced that there is not a god (a subtle difference). I see not a shred of evidence to suggest that there is one ... etc., etc. It’s easier to say that I am a radical atheist, just to signal that I really mean it, have thought about it a great deal, and that it’s an opinion I hold seriously." - Douglas Adams (and I echo the sentiment)
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RE: 5 bombshells some atheists are not aware of
May 2, 2014 at 5:29 am
(May 2, 2014 at 3:49 am)ManMachine Wrote: I think there are certain Christian groups that would want to categorise him as an atheist to justify their own simplistic view of the issues, and Dawkins certainly has anti-theist views (The God Delusion' case in point) but in his own words he is agnostic with anti-theist views. I'm not calling him agnostic, I'm just reporting that he calls himself agnostic. Yes, but the "fact" you posted claims that he never called himself an atheist, and that's obviously not true. Dawkins is an agnostic atheist. The terms are not exclusive; only an anti-theist cannot also be an agnostic.
"Well, evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don't go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's in this century, but apples didn't suspend themselves in midair, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape- like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered."
-Stephen Jay Gould
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RE: 5 bombshells some atheists are not aware of
May 2, 2014 at 7:31 am
(May 2, 2014 at 5:29 am)Tonus Wrote: (May 2, 2014 at 3:49 am)ManMachine Wrote: I think there are certain Christian groups that would want to categorise him as an atheist to justify their own simplistic view of the issues, and Dawkins certainly has anti-theist views (The God Delusion' case in point) but in his own words he is agnostic with anti-theist views. I'm not calling him agnostic, I'm just reporting that he calls himself agnostic. Yes, but the "fact" you posted claims that he never called himself an atheist, and that's obviously not true. Dawkins is an agnostic atheist. The terms are not exclusive; only an anti-theist cannot also be an agnostic.
Why is it 'obviously not true'? An anti-theist can be agnostic, a non-theist cannot.
Can you post a quote form Dawkins where he either claims to be an atheist or an agnostic-atheist? I've seen many people attribute that to him but not heard it from the man himself. As far as I am aware (and I could be wrong) he has always considered himself to be agnostic with anti-theist views. I would be interested to see what context might cause him to make a statement like that.
MM
"The greatest deception men suffer is from their own opinions" - Leonardo da Vinci
"I think I use the term “radical” rather loosely, just for emphasis. If you describe yourself as “atheist,” some people will say, “Don’t you mean ‘agnostic’?” I have to reply that I really do mean atheist, I really do not believe that there is a god; in fact, I am convinced that there is not a god (a subtle difference). I see not a shred of evidence to suggest that there is one ... etc., etc. It’s easier to say that I am a radical atheist, just to signal that I really mean it, have thought about it a great deal, and that it’s an opinion I hold seriously." - Douglas Adams (and I echo the sentiment)
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RE: 5 bombshells some atheists are not aware of
May 2, 2014 at 7:48 am
(This post was last modified: May 2, 2014 at 7:53 am by Sejanus.)
Being not completely certain of god(s) non-existance does not make you agnostic, as you seem to think. It means you're an agnostic atheist. Which is what I think Richard Dawkins and most atheists are. If you knew with complete certainty that said god(s) did not exist (which is impossible, as deistic gods are unfalsifiable hypotheses), you would be a gnostic atheist.
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RE: 5 bombshells some atheists are not aware of
May 2, 2014 at 7:48 am
(May 2, 2014 at 5:29 am)Tonus Wrote: [quote='ManMachine' pid='662535' dateline='1399016979']only an anti-theist cannot also be an agnostic.
I think it's possible to be an anti-theist and not claim to know if god exists.
I've always thought an anti-theist was basically someone who finds the idea of theism/religion/belief repugnant and would not wish to be a theist/religious/believer even if it were true. It's almost the opposite of someone who quotes Pascal's wager and wishes to live their life as if their particular god exists, even if it doesn't.
Anyway I consider myself to be agnostic, atheist and anti-theistic. What makes you say they are not compatible with each other?
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RE: 5 bombshells some atheists are not aware of
May 2, 2014 at 9:06 am
(May 1, 2014 at 5:11 pm)ManMachine Wrote: Following on from a recent post in another thread I decided to drop a few very interesting bombshells.
These can all be verified with a little effort (I'm not doing all the work for you).
1. Darwin never once uses either the word ‘ape’ or ‘apes’ in his work ‘On The Origin of Species’, so he could never have said Humans were descendants of or shared a common ancestor with apes.
2. Richard Dawkins has never called himself an atheist, he actually considers himself to be agnostic.
3. Early on in Dawkins’ book, ‘The God Delusion’, he points out that no one can have total certainty that God does or does not exist.
4. Darwin had little faith in fossil records ever proving his theory of Evolution, he considered them too incomplete.
5. Sir Isaac Newton had an interest in the occult, he studied alchemy and believed he would discover The Philosopher’s Stone, a material capable of turning base metal into gold. He also believed that metals ‘possessed a sort of life’.
Enjoy,
MM
1 - I'm about 1/2 way through that book right now. No mention of human evolution yet. Also, don't see how this is a "bombshell".
2 - On his own scale, he said he's a 6.9/7. He said he's just as sure gods don't exist as he is that fairies and leprechauns don't exist.
3 - Yep. And?
4 - Yep. I actually got to that part. The fossil record is, by its very nature, incomplete. But evolution can be proved without a single fossil, just based on DNA evidence.
5 - He also believed in astrology and Yahweh. He was a genius, but also a product of his time.
I'm a bitch, I'm a lover
I'm a goddess, I'm a mother
I'm a sinner, I'm a saint
I do not feel ashamed
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RE: 5 bombshells some atheists are not aware of
May 2, 2014 at 9:08 am
(May 2, 2014 at 7:31 am)ManMachine Wrote: Can you post a quote form Dawkins where he either claims to be an atheist or an agnostic-atheist? I've seen many people attribute that to him but not heard it from the man himself. In the following story (with embedded video) where he admits to being agnostic, he reminds the audience that he remains an atheist:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/02/24...99752.html
Quote:But, to the amusement of the archbishop and others, the evolutionary biologist swiftly added that he was "6.9 out of seven" certain of his long-standing atheist beliefs.
Replying to moderator Anthony Kenny, a noted English philosopher, Dawkins said, "I think the probability of a supernatural creator existing (is) very, very low."
"Well, evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don't go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's in this century, but apples didn't suspend themselves in midair, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape- like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered."
-Stephen Jay Gould
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RE: 5 bombshells some atheists are not aware of
May 2, 2014 at 11:28 am
(This post was last modified: May 2, 2014 at 11:31 am by Simon Moon.)
You'd believe if you just opened your heart" is a terrible argument for religion. It's basically saying, "If you bias yourself enough, you can convince yourself that this is true." If religion were true, people wouldn't need faith to believe it -- it would be supported by good evidence.
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RE: 5 bombshells some atheists are not aware of
May 2, 2014 at 11:45 am
(This post was last modified: May 2, 2014 at 11:58 am by Mister Agenda.)
(May 1, 2014 at 5:11 pm)ManMachine Wrote: Following on from a recent post in another thread I decided to drop a few very interesting bombshells.
These can all be verified with a little effort (I'm not doing all the work for you).
1. Darwin never once uses either the word ‘ape’ or ‘apes’ in his work ‘On The Origin of Species’, so he could never have said Humans were descendants of or shared a common ancestor with apes.
2. Richard Dawkins has never called himself an atheist, he actually considers himself to be agnostic.
3. Early on in Dawkins’ book, ‘The God Delusion’, he points out that no one can have total certainty that God does or does not exist.
4. Darwin had little faith in fossil records ever proving his theory of Evolution, he considered them too incomplete.
5. Sir Isaac Newton had an interest in the occult, he studied alchemy and believed he would discover The Philosopher’s Stone, a material capable of turning base metal into gold. He also believed that metals ‘possessed a sort of life’.
Enjoy,
MM
2. Dawkins puts himself as a six on the Dawkins Scale. which he labels as 'de facto atheist'. He is an agnostic atheist, like most of us here.
(May 2, 2014 at 3:49 am)ManMachine Wrote: [i]"... There was surprise when Prof Dawkins acknowledged that he was less than 100 per cent certain of his conviction that there is no creator.
The philosopher Sir Anthony Kenny, who chaired the discussion, interjected: “Why don’t you call yourself an agnostic?” Prof Dawkins answered that he did."
Which would not have been news to anyone who read The God Delusion, where he spelled out his position in such simple terms that a child could understand it. Care to conduct a poll to find out how many people here didn't know Dawkins is agnostic? Care to conduct a poll to find out how many atheists here are also agnostic?
(May 2, 2014 at 3:49 am)ManMachine Wrote: I think there are certain Christian groups that would want to categorise him as an atheist to justify their own simplistic view of the issues, and Dawkins certainly has anti-theist views (The God Delusion' case in point) but in his own words he is agnostic with anti-theist views. I'm not calling him agnostic, I'm just reporting that he calls himself agnostic.
There's nothing Christian groups would like better than to label Dawkins as 'not-an-atheist', which is why they got so excited about him being an agnostic. Thanks for the report, but it isn't news here.
(May 2, 2014 at 3:49 am)ManMachine Wrote: Aww, Mr Grumpy.
I don't understand why you are arguing with me, I'm just a messenger, these are facts, what you chose to do with them is up to you. If you have an issue with Dawkins' agnosticism then take it up with him, he said it, not me.
You need to redirect your ire where it will better serve you.
MM
I don't see how ire isn't appropriately directed at someone too oblivious to get that no one here has a problem with Dawkins being agnostic, and likely no one here was unaware of it.
Maybe you shouldn't assume that other people are ignorant of things you've just discovered.
I'm not anti-Christian. I'm anti-stupid.
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RE: 5 bombshells some atheists are not aware of
May 2, 2014 at 3:29 pm
(May 1, 2014 at 5:11 pm)ManMachine Wrote: Following on from a recent post in another thread I decided to drop a few very interesting bombshells.
These can all be verified with a little effort (I'm not doing all the work for you).
1. Darwin never once uses either the word ‘ape’ or ‘apes’ in his work ‘On The Origin of Species’, so he could never have said Humans were descendants of or shared a common ancestor with apes. I didn't know this one. I disagree that it can be verified with little effort. You'd have to read the entire book.
Quote:2. Richard Dawkins has never called himself an atheist, he actually considers himself to be agnostic.
I disagree with this one:
We are all atheists about most of the gods that societies have ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further.
Quote:3. Early on in Dawkins’ book, ‘The God Delusion’, he points out that no one can have total certainty that God does or does not exist.
Not exactly a bombshell.
Quote:4. Darwin had little faith in fossil records ever proving his theory of Evolution, he considered them too incomplete.
5. Sir Isaac Newton had an interest in the occult, he studied alchemy and believed he would discover The Philosopher’s Stone, a material capable of turning base metal into gold. He also believed that metals ‘possessed a sort of life’.
Enjoy,
MM
I knew these, but they may be surprising to some.
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