Intelligent Design: Did you design yourself?

[Cyberman]

You agree that at some point, on earth, most lineages of life will be the result of intelligent design. If this is true of the earth, and it appears this will soon be the case, Why couldn't it be true of the universe itself?

For my money, I'd say that there's no reason that it couldn't be true of the Universe itself in that scenario. However, that's only the start of the journey, not the end. You can't just posit the possibility and then stop there as though you've made some scientific breakthrough and expect to be taken seriously without putting in the work to test the hypothesis. That's the part where creationists constantly and consistently fall down.

[Heywood]

You agree that at some point, on earth, most lineages of life will be the result of intelligent design. If this is true of the earth, and it appears this will soon be the case, Why couldn't it be true of the universe itself?

For my money, I'd say that there's no reason that it couldn't be true of the Universe itself in that scenario. However, that's only the start of the journey, not the end. You can't just posit the possibility and then stop there as though you've made some scientific breakthrough and expect to be taken seriously without putting in the work to test the hypothesis. That's the part where creationists constantly and consistently fall down.

So you agree that it could be true that most lineages of life in the universe are the products of intellect? I don't know if you realize it yet or not, but atheists need what creationist have been trying to do....that is have an objective means to differentiate between something that is designed and something that is not designed. Without this objective means....the atheist position is much weaker than the theists. Let me explain.

Imagine walking down a beach and finding a watch. You know the watch was designed and produced by an intellect and did not occur naturally. How do you know this? Not because of the precision and complexity of the device(this is where my argument differs from Paley's). You know it was designed and produced by an intellect and not nature because in your experience you've observed that watches are designed and produced by intellects, and you've never seen them occur naturally. You know this watch you found was the product of an intellect even though you aren't privy to the details of it creation. This is how we currently differentiate the designed from the not designed.

What about lineages of life? Well if you only observe lineages of life coming into existence by being designed and produced by intellects, and never observe them coming into existence naturally, you are in a good position to claim that a lineage of life whose creation details you are not privy too was designed and produced by an intellect. A theists is in a strong position to claim that all lineages of biological life are designed and produced by intellects, because the rule we use to determined what is designed and produced by an intellect and what isn't suggests that biological life is like a watch....something exclusively designed and produced by intellects.

[The Grand Nudger]

What about lineages of life? Well if you only observe lineages of life coming into existence by being designed and produced by intellects, and never observe them coming into existence naturally, you are in a good position to claim that a lineage of life whose creation details you are not privy too was designed and produced by intellects.

You realize that you are outnumbered in your own body by "lineages" or "life" that is not a product of any intellect we can detect....correct?

[Heywood]

What about lineages of life? Well if you only observe lineages of life coming into existence by being designed and produced by intellects, and never observe them coming into existence naturally, you are in a good position to claim that a lineage of life whose creation details you are not privy too was designed and produced by intellects.

You realize that you are outnumbered in your own body by "lineages" or "life" that is not a product of any intellect we can detect....correct?

All life on this earth, including every cell in my body, all of it descends from a Universal Common Ancestor. There is only one known lineage of life on this planet. Soon there will be many lineages.....and most, if not all, will have been designed and produced by intellects.

[The Grand Nudger]

All life on this earth, including every cell in my body, all of it descends from a Universal Common Ancestor.

Indeed...which..so far as we can tell....did not have any sort of "intellect" going for it whatsoever. Try again.

(by your logic..wouldn't that then mean that -no- life on this planet is a product of intellect?)

[Heywood]

All life on this earth, including every cell in my body, all of it descends from a Universal Common Ancestor.

Indeed...which..so far as we can tell....did not have any sort of "intellect" going for it whatsoever. Try again.

The intellect that made the watch found on the beach....he or she is no where to be found....yet you still know the watch was made by an intellect.

If SETI finds a signal and determines it of intelligent alien origin, they don't need to see the intelligent aliens. Why? Because certain kinds of signals are always observed to be the products of intellect and never observed to be the products of nature. That's how SETI will differentiate a designed signal and one that is produced by nature.

The rule we use to determine what is designed and what isn't, doesn't require the intellect to present. Only the intellects product need be present and our previous experience with those kinds of things.

Atheists need some means of determining what is designed and what isn't that doesn't rely on our experience.

[Cyberman]

For my money, I'd say that there's no reason that it couldn't be true of the Universe itself in that scenario. However, that's only the start of the journey, not the end. You can't just posit the possibility and then stop there as though you've made some scientific breakthrough and expect to be taken seriously without putting in the work to test the hypothesis. That's the part where creationists constantly and consistently fall down.

So you agree that it could be true that most lineages of life in the universe are the products of intellect?

No, I said that in the scenario you painted I see no reason that it couldn't be true - but that I'm not going to swallow it or anything about it until the work is done to show it to be true.

Creationists, IDiots and CDesign Proponentsists need to show their work just like real scientists have to.

I don't know if you realize it yet or not,

This isn't condescending at all.

but atheists need what creationist have been trying to do....that is have an objective means to differentiate between something that is designed and something that is not designed.

But that's exactly what your side hasn't got. You have no means of discerning design in nature from naturally evolved things. Even the artificially created specimens you've been trumpeting here are known to be designed purely because the designers published papers detailing exactly how they did it.

Without this objective means....the atheist position is much weaker than the theists. Let me explain.

Can I have a lollipop after the story if I'm a good boy?

Imagine walking down a beach and finding a watch. You know the watch was designed and produced by an intellect and did not occur naturally. How do you know this? Not because of the precision and complexity of the device(this is where my argument differs from Paley's). You know it was designed and produced by an intellect and not nature because in your experience you've observed that watches are designed and produced by intellects, and you've never seen them occur naturally. You know this watch you found was the product of an intellect even though you aren't privy to the details of it creation. This is how we currently differentiate the designed from the not designed.

Exactly so. Which is why we can't make the same claims for a tree, a bird, or a blade of grass.

What about lineages of life? Well if you only observe lineages of life coming into existence by being designed and produced by intellects, and never observe them coming into existence naturally, you are in a good position to claim that a lineage of life whose creation details you are not privy too was designed and produced by an intellect. A theists is in a strong position to claim that all lineages of biological life are designed and produced by intellects, because the rule we use to determined what is designed and produced by an intellect and what isn't suggests that biological life is like a watch....something exclusively designed and produced by intellects.

And yet again I'm saying that you can claim anything you like and it doesn't amount to a mosquito's fart unless you test the claim against the real world. Do your home work first, then we can have something to talk about instead of warmed-over Paley.

[CapnAwesome]

I didn't design myself, but if I did I would design me to be exactly as I am. Because I'm awesome.

[The Grand Nudger]

The intellect that made the watch found on the beach....he or she is no where to be found....yet you still know the watch was made by an intellect.

If you aren't anywhere to be found and yet you found a watch on the beach.........well, I don't think I can help you there. Again you manage to defeat your own position.

If SETI finds a signal and determines it of intelligent alien origin, they don't need to see the intelligent aliens. Why? Because certain kinds of signals are always observed to be the products of intellect and never observed to be the products of nature. That's how SETI will differentiate a designed signal and one that is produced by nature.

I would be amused to find SETI claiming that they had found a signal of "alien origin" in the absence of findings aliens. I think the best they'll be able to do is say "We found a signal that does 't fit"- which, last I checked, is not the case with life.

The rule we use to determine what is designed and what isn't, doesn't require the intellect to present. Only the intellects product need be present and our previous experience with those kinds of things.

If we have previous experience then it was, at some point, present and observable to us. Make it so for your "intelligent designer"?

Atheists need some means of determining what is designed and what isn't that doesn't rely on our experience.

Why do atheists specifically need this..in any case, if you're looking for "some means of determining" -anything- that "doesn't rely on our experience"...you're SOL...and skipping stones on the pond of solipsism.

[Rampant.A.I.]

Indeed...which..so far as we can tell....did not have any sort of "intellect" going for it whatsoever. Try again.

The intellect that made the watch found on the beach....he or she is no where to be found....yet you still know the watch was made by an intellect.

If SETI finds a signal and determines it of intelligent alien origin, they don't need to see the intelligent aliens. Why? Because certain kinds of signals are always observed to be the products of intellect and never observed to be the products of nature. That's how SETI will differentiate a designed signal and one that is produced by nature.

The rule we use to determine what is designed and what isn't, doesn't require the intellect to present. Only the intellects product need be present and our previous experience with those kinds of things.

Atheists need some means of determining what is designed and what isn't that doesn't rely on our experience.

Atheists aren't responsible for refuting a claim no one has been able to support.