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RE: expanding universe question
June 9, 2014 at 6:10 am
(June 9, 2014 at 3:37 am)Godschild Wrote: (May 31, 2014 at 7:41 am)LostLocke Wrote: It's not "empty space" that's expanding, it's just space.
And the space isn't coming from anywhere, it's more like it's stretching.
Kaku likes to use a balloon as an example. When you blow up a balloon even though it's getting bigger, there isn't more rubber being added to it, just the rubber that is already there is stretching.
That seems unreasonable, a deflated balloon has some air in it and to make the balloon expand more air, other gas or liquid must be added to expand the balloon and if to much of these properties are added the balloon burst. I've not seen anyone claiming that the space of the universe will burst.
GC
Actually, there is a theory (called the Big Rip) that posits that the universe will end up accelerating so fast that everything just disintegrates.
If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. - J.R.R Tolkien
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RE: expanding universe question
June 9, 2014 at 7:25 am
Followed by a gigantic toddler bawling his eyes out.
At the age of five, Skagra decided emphatically that God did not exist. This revelation tends to make most people in the universe who have it react in one of two ways - with relief or with despair. Only Skagra responded to it by thinking, 'Wait a second. That means there's a situation vacant.'
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RE: expanding universe question
June 9, 2014 at 12:41 pm
(June 9, 2014 at 3:37 am)Godschild Wrote: (May 31, 2014 at 7:41 am)LostLocke Wrote: It's not "empty space" that's expanding, it's just space.
And the space isn't coming from anywhere, it's more like it's stretching.
Kaku likes to use a balloon as an example. When you blow up a balloon even though it's getting bigger, there isn't more rubber being added to it, just the rubber that is already there is stretching.
That seems unreasonable, a deflated balloon has some air in it and to make the balloon expand more air, other gas or liquid must be added to expand the balloon and if to much of these properties are added the balloon burst. I've not seen anyone claiming that the space of the universe will burst.
GC Plus, the universe isn't the air in the balloon, it's the rubber of the balloon.
No new rubber is being added, it's just stretching.
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RE: expanding universe question
June 9, 2014 at 10:33 pm
(This post was last modified: June 9, 2014 at 10:36 pm by Godscreated.)
(June 9, 2014 at 4:36 am)pocaracas Wrote: (June 9, 2014 at 3:37 am)Godschild Wrote: That seems unreasonable, a deflated balloon has some air in it and to make the balloon expand more air, other gas or liquid must be added to expand the balloon and if to much of these properties are added the balloon burst. I've not seen anyone claiming that the space of the universe will burst.
GC
I just saw this in the HoS and just had to come see it for myself!!
WTF, man?!?!?!
Just shut up, if you don't understand the concept. Sometimes, it's great to be introvert, you refrain from letting everyone know that you don't know anything about a given subject!
No matter how much you laugh, it's still a bad analogy, it doesn't fit the question.
GC
(June 9, 2014 at 12:41 pm)LostLocke Wrote: (June 9, 2014 at 3:37 am)Godschild Wrote: That seems unreasonable, a deflated balloon has some air in it and to make the balloon expand more air, other gas or liquid must be added to expand the balloon and if to much of these properties are added the balloon burst. I've not seen anyone claiming that the space of the universe will burst.
GC Plus, the universe isn't the air in the balloon, it's the rubber of the balloon.
No new rubber is being added, it's just stretching.
The balloon would represent the edge of the universe, the question was where does the extra space come from, that would be the air in the balloon.
GC
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
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RE: expanding universe question
June 9, 2014 at 11:03 pm
Our 'region' of the universe is expanding, but there is not a rim or edge to it beyond which there is a void or something that it is expanding into.
Rather, if you were 9/10 of the way to the 'edge' we sense from here, you would NOT note an asymmetry to the region of space you are in, that is, you would not see an 'edge' 10 times closer in one direction than the opposite. Instead, you would sense an 'edge' just like we do from here, at an immense uniform distance all the way around you.
And if you again traveled 9/10 of the way to 'that' edge, and looked around again, you would still be perfectly centered in that region of the universe you could sense from there.
And all of us here, would no longer note you to be in our universe at all . . . .
Beats the snot out of 'Let there be light . . . '
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RE: expanding universe question
June 9, 2014 at 11:50 pm
Quote:Kaku was using an analogy to explain a rather esoteric concept to laymen.
Don't say "lay men" to G-C. You know how his kind get about anything gay!
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RE: expanding universe question
June 10, 2014 at 2:51 am
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RE: expanding universe question
June 10, 2014 at 10:55 am
(June 9, 2014 at 10:33 pm)Godschild Wrote: (June 9, 2014 at 12:41 pm)LostLocke Wrote: Plus, the universe isn't the air in the balloon, it's the rubber of the balloon.
No new rubber is being added, it's just stretching.
The balloon would represent the edge of the universe, the question was where does the extra space come from, that would be the air in the balloon. No, the balloon itself represents the universe.
To get this analogy you need to completely forget about everything inside and outside the balloon.
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RE: expanding universe question
June 10, 2014 at 11:44 am
(This post was last modified: June 10, 2014 at 12:54 pm by Anomalocaris.)
(June 10, 2014 at 10:55 am)LostLocke Wrote: (June 9, 2014 at 10:33 pm)Godschild Wrote: The balloon would represent the edge of the universe, the question was where does the extra space come from, that would be the air in the balloon. No, the balloon itself represents the universe.
To get this analogy you need to completely forget about everything inside and outside the balloon.
There is no edge to the universe. For purpose of understanding how universe can expand, it might be better to think of space as not a thing, but a concept used to provide a mental analogue of behavior of things in space. Because space is not a thing, it need not come from anywhere.
Tell me if I am wrong, but it seems to me the reason why it can seem counterintuitive for things in space to behave as if all of space is expanding probably somehow boils down to this:
You subconsciously know energy is conserved. If things are moving apart as if universe is expanding, then the total amount of gravitational potential energy would have to be increasing. It is just like lifting an object in a gravitational field. You have to put in energy to move a thing away from the source of gravity. Where is this energy coming from?
Is this right?
If so, then the answer is actually quite simple. this energy doesn't come from anywhere because it is always exactly balanced by other forms of energy that has the opposit sign. Conservation of energy doesn't say any specific form of energy must be conserved. It only says total net energy has to be conserved. As gravitational potential energy increases, so does other form of energy with the opposite sign, the chief amongst these is dark energy. So the sum total of all energy in the universe remains conserved, no matter how much the universe and gravitational potential energy increases. Expanding universe and expansion of space has no effect on the net energy of the universe. No net energy is either added or subtracted from the universe as it expands. The only effect of expansion is things gets shuffled around between different buckets. So as nothing can come from nothing, nothing did come nothing.
Expandion of universe is just like a company taking on debt in order to buy assets. The assets keeps getting bigger, so you wonder where did the money to pay for all this come from. The money didn't come from nowhere because there was no change to net money. The company's debt is simply getting bigger in sync with assets. So the company's net worth remains precisely unchanged.
Think of god as a shaddy accountant running a company like that, and hoping to be on the make by tricking the market and hiding the debt, and you see how space can keep expanding.
Does this help?
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RE: expanding universe question
June 10, 2014 at 12:29 pm
(June 9, 2014 at 3:37 am)Godschild Wrote: (May 31, 2014 at 7:41 am)LostLocke Wrote: It's not "empty space" that's expanding, it's just space.
And the space isn't coming from anywhere, it's more like it's stretching.
Kaku likes to use a balloon as an example. When you blow up a balloon even though it's getting bigger, there isn't more rubber being added to it, just the rubber that is already there is stretching.
That seems unreasonable, a deflated balloon has some air in it and to make the balloon expand more air, other gas or liquid must be added to expand the balloon and if to much of these properties are added the balloon burst. I've not seen anyone claiming that the space of the universe will burst.
GC
Are you familiar with the phrase 'overextending the analogy'?
I'm not anti-Christian. I'm anti-stupid.
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