Posts: 66329
Threads: 140
Joined: June 28, 2011
Reputation:
160
RE: Q about arguments for God's existence.
June 21, 2015 at 3:00 pm
Quote:Heads up: special pleading by saying 'it's god he can do whatever' doesn't cover it.
-because.....wait for it.......it's not -valid- argumentation.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Posts: 15452
Threads: 147
Joined: June 15, 2015
Reputation:
88
RE: Q about arguments for God's existence.
June 21, 2015 at 3:00 pm
(This post was last modified: June 21, 2015 at 3:01 pm by Catholic_Lady.)
(June 21, 2015 at 2:52 pm)Neimenovic Wrote: Yes, CL. Tell me more about what I believe. I wouldn't have a clue if you didn't.
I said. I don't know. I'm purely agnostic on the matters of origins of the universe. I don't know, PERIOD. I don't have a theory.
My apologies.
It seems like you would have some sort of opinion though, if you're so sure that mine is wrong. Even if your opinion is simply "anything, except supernatural elements."
And since the only theories I've heard so far in this thread by other atheists are:
a. the first ever thing to have existed came from nothing, or
b. the first ever thing to have existed has always existed
...I assumed that you disqualifying the any supernatural elements, meant the only things left over were one of those 2.
I wasn't aware that there were other options to choose from besides something having to do with those 2 things.
Quote:You don't have anything to respect CL. because I don't speak on matters I don't know much about. That IS an option, you know.
That's fine. Like I said, you don't have to respect me, or my opinions. I just want you to know that I respect yours, even if we disagree.
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly."
-walsh
Posts: 29107
Threads: 218
Joined: August 9, 2014
Reputation:
155
RE: Q about arguments for God's existence.
June 21, 2015 at 3:01 pm
(This post was last modified: June 21, 2015 at 3:02 pm by robvalue.)
I think there is a misconception here that everyone must have their own idea of how things came to be the way they are.
It's certainly not the case. I have no idea. I could put forward a few possible scenarios, but I would have next to zero confidence that any of them are actually right. They would be "sensible guesses". And even calling them that is charitable.
Every atheist will have their own idea, or indeed no idea. In my experience, no idea is the prevailing state of affairs.
Posts: 66329
Threads: 140
Joined: June 28, 2011
Reputation:
160
RE: Q about arguments for God's existence.
June 21, 2015 at 3:02 pm
(This post was last modified: June 21, 2015 at 3:03 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
People -are- showing both you and your opinions respect when they take the time to consider them, when they take the time to point out that they are not valid. -Not- showing you or your opinions respect would be something like this:
"Fuck you and your opinions I don't care and I'm not going to give them a moments thought"
Showing a person or more specifically, here, their opinions respect -does not have to include- agreeing with them, or even agreeing that they are valid.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Posts: 15452
Threads: 147
Joined: June 15, 2015
Reputation:
88
RE: Q about arguments for God's existence.
June 21, 2015 at 3:02 pm
(June 21, 2015 at 2:56 pm)Neimenovic Wrote: (June 21, 2015 at 2:49 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: How do you estimate that?
How do you measure the improbability of the existence that there is a super natural element involved?
You look at the claim.
First of all, what the hell does supernatural mean?
Secondly, infinite regress is a problem for your creator. That's the hole in your theory.
Heads up: special pleading by saying 'it's god he can do whatever' doesn't cover it.
Supernatural: attributed to some force beyond scientific understanding or the laws of nature.
^as per webster.
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly."
-walsh
Posts: 7318
Threads: 75
Joined: April 18, 2015
Reputation:
73
RE: Q about arguments for God's existence.
June 21, 2015 at 3:03 pm
(June 21, 2015 at 3:00 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: My apologies.
It seems like you would have some sort of opinion if you're so sure that mine is wrong. Even if your opinion is simply "anything, except supernatural elements."
And why would that be? Do I need to have an alternative to say something sounds improbable?
Quote:So since the only theories I've heard so far in this thread by other atheists are:
a. the first ever thing to have existed came from nothing, or
b. the first ever thing to have existed has always existed
...I assumed that you disqualifying the any supernatural elements, meant the only things left over were one of those 2.
I wasn't aware that there were other options to choose from besides something having to do with those 2 things.
Really? I mean, we have no clue. Three options is hardly a fraction of the possibilities.
Posts: 7318
Threads: 75
Joined: April 18, 2015
Reputation:
73
RE: Q about arguments for God's existence.
June 21, 2015 at 3:05 pm
(June 21, 2015 at 3:02 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: (June 21, 2015 at 2:56 pm)Neimenovic Wrote: You look at the claim.
First of all, what the hell does supernatural mean?
Secondly, infinite regress is a problem for your creator. That's the hole in your theory.
Heads up: special pleading by saying 'it's god he can do whatever' doesn't cover it.
Supernatural: attributed to some force beyond scientific understanding or the laws of nature.
^as per webster.
There is nothing beyond the laws of nature because nature is everything. Everything that is a part of the natural world is natural. Supernatural means not a part of the natural world, which means nonexistent.
How about the infinite regress? How do you solve that conundrum?
Posts: 15452
Threads: 147
Joined: June 15, 2015
Reputation:
88
RE: Q about arguments for God's existence.
June 21, 2015 at 3:07 pm
(June 21, 2015 at 3:01 pm)robvalue Wrote: I think there is a misconception here that everyone must have their own idea of how things came to be the way they are.
It's certainly not the case. I have no idea. I could put forward a few possible scenarios, but I would have next to zero confidence that any of them are actually right. They would be "sensible guesses". And even calling them that is charitable.
Every atheist will have their own idea, or indeed no idea. In my experience, no idea is the prevailing state of affairs. my bold
But you saying you "have no idea" is not entirely accurate, because you are vehemently certain that one theory (a supernatural element) is not it. So you do have some sort of an idea, even if that idea is just "definitely not God."
Or am I misunderstanding?
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly."
-walsh
Posts: 29107
Threads: 218
Joined: August 9, 2014
Reputation:
155
RE: Q about arguments for God's existence.
June 21, 2015 at 3:07 pm
(This post was last modified: June 21, 2015 at 3:09 pm by robvalue.)
The problem with calling anything supernatural is that you just cut off every possible way that you can know anything about it, so you're reduced to guessing.
No, I have no idea. That doesn't mean I can't recognise a bad idea when I see it.
For example, I don't need to know the exact square root of 8 to know it isn't 2.5.
I don't need to know what my neighbour is like to realize that him being a dragon is unlikely.
Posts: 66329
Threads: 140
Joined: June 28, 2011
Reputation:
160
RE: Q about arguments for God's existence.
June 21, 2015 at 3:09 pm
(This post was last modified: June 21, 2015 at 3:11 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
IOW, bare assertion. Not -valid-.
I'm certain that -your position- on the supernatural and it;s relationship with our origins is wrong......I'm certain of nothing regarding some existent supernatural -x-....how could I be? I'm certain, because your position, and the arguments offered in support of it.....aren't valid.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
|
