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RE: Q about arguments for God's existence.
June 21, 2015 at 2:42 pm
(June 21, 2015 at 8:55 am)Stimbo Wrote: There is a fundamental difference, though. "I don’t know and neither do you; let's investigate" will always trump "I know and neither do you; therefore God" every time.
Neither of us has concrete proof.
But I believe there is a supernatural element involved,
and you believe things just came from nothing, or have always been.
We each believe something without proof of it.
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly."
-walsh
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RE: Q about arguments for God's existence.
June 21, 2015 at 2:44 pm
(This post was last modified: June 21, 2015 at 2:46 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Wrong again. That things either come from nothing or something is mechanically true by default. That the supernatural even exists remains an unjustified assertion. Your entire interaction here is a form of:
"But you do it to!"
-which is poor argumentation, -not valid- as has already been explained. Hop in the raft with Randy and I, we could use another oarsman, the bullshit is getting choppy.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Q about arguments for God's existence.
June 21, 2015 at 2:44 pm
(This post was last modified: June 21, 2015 at 2:45 pm by Catholic_Lady.)
(June 21, 2015 at 9:07 am)Neimenovic Wrote: 'We don't know' doesn't give you a free pass to accept the most improbable theory. And improbability is not a question of personal judgement.
You thinking that my theory (supernatural element) is more improbably than your theory (things came form nothing, or have always existed), is an opinion.
I believe the opposite. Neither one of us has proof for either.
(June 21, 2015 at 2:41 pm)Rhythm Wrote: The weak theory of "I don't know"......? Validity does not hinge upon opinion. You're clearly having trouble...with words.
The theory that the first ever "thing" to ever have existed either came from nothing, or has always been... without believing in a supernatural element at play..
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly."
-walsh
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RE: Q about arguments for God's existence.
June 21, 2015 at 2:46 pm
(June 21, 2015 at 2:39 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: (June 21, 2015 at 4:26 am)Neimenovic Wrote: It's a weak theory. And it's not exactly yours, only in the sense that you believe in it.
You're jumping to the most improbable explanation that doesn't explain anything....
Except you're not. You already believed that. That's the thing with believers: everything is presupposed.
I'll put it this way: you were already taught the conclusion without going along any line of reasoning. That's what religion does. It doesn't examine the evidence. It trots out a conclusion and then tries to fit evidence to support it.
Kalam is just wrong upon wrong upon more fucking wrong.
I don't know. And I accept that I don't know. We can fantasize all day, but we don't know. But you believe. That's the difference.
Well, the notion that it's a weak theory is still your opinion. I respect your opinion, but of course, I disagree. I think your theory is a weak theory.
But that's fine.
That's why each of us believes what we do, and at the end of the day it is still something that science and our natural laws have not been able to explain or find proof of, so we are left to each respect the other's theories.
Except that this opinion of mine that your theory is weak is an informed opinion, based on the improbability of what you are proposing.
My theory? Oh boy, how fascinating. Please, tell me what my theory is. I'd love to know.
I don't have a theory, Cat Lady. I accept that I don't know. I don't hazard guesses on topics I can't grasp. Simple as that.
I don't have to respect your theory. I think it's garbage.
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RE: Q about arguments for God's existence.
June 21, 2015 at 2:46 pm
(June 21, 2015 at 2:44 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Wrong again. That things either come from nothing or something is mechanically true by default.
I also included the theory that some things have just always been.
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly."
-walsh
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RE: Q about arguments for God's existence.
June 21, 2015 at 2:47 pm
(This post was last modified: June 21, 2015 at 2:51 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Which would be things coming from something, ad infinitum. But who cares, I want to see some acknowledgement that you understand why it's important to argue a point by valid means, particularly if you are then going to claim some validity for that position, either in a vacuum -or- relative to another position.
Can you describe your position in a valid manner? If you cannot.....then no, your position is not valid..let alone equally valid. This is not -anyones- opinion. This is a fact.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Q about arguments for God's existence.
June 21, 2015 at 2:47 pm
(June 21, 2015 at 2:44 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: (June 21, 2015 at 9:07 am)Neimenovic Wrote: 'We don't know' doesn't give you a free pass to accept the most improbable theory. And improbability is not a question of personal judgement.
You thinking that my theory (supernatural element) is more improbably than your theory (things came form nothing, or have always existed), is an opinion.
I believe the opposite. Neither one of us has proof for either.
The improbability of your theory is not an opinion. It is an estimation.
Please, tell me more about what I believe. I wouldn't have known otherwise.
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RE: Q about arguments for God's existence.
June 21, 2015 at 2:49 pm
(This post was last modified: June 21, 2015 at 2:54 pm by Catholic_Lady.)
(June 21, 2015 at 2:46 pm)Neimenovic Wrote: (June 21, 2015 at 2:39 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Well, the notion that it's a weak theory is still your opinion. I respect your opinion, but of course, I disagree. I think your theory is a weak theory.
But that's fine.
That's why each of us believes what we do, and at the end of the day it is still something that science and our natural laws have not been able to explain or find proof of, so we are left to each respect the other's theories.
Except that this opinion of mine that your theory is weak is an informed opinion, based on the improbability of what you are proposing.
My theory? Oh boy, how fascinating. Please, tell me what my theory is. I'd love to know.
I don't have a theory, Cat Lady. I accept that I don't know. I don't hazard guesses on topics I can't grasp. Simple as that.
I don't have to respect your theory. I think it's garbage.
What information do you have that supports the notion that a. the first ever "thing" to ever have existed came from nothing, or b. the first ever "thing" to ever have existed has always existed.
That's fine. I never asked for respect. But I still respect yours.
(June 21, 2015 at 2:47 pm)Neimenovic Wrote: (June 21, 2015 at 2:44 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: You thinking that my theory (supernatural element) is more improbably than your theory (things came form nothing, or have always existed), is an opinion.
The improbability of your theory is not an opinion. It is an estimation.
How do you estimate that?
Quote: I believe the opposite. Neither one of us has proof for either.
I agree. I have said this many times.
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly."
-walsh
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RE: Q about arguments for God's existence.
June 21, 2015 at 2:52 pm
Yes, CL. Tell me more about what I believe. I wouldn't have a clue if you didn't.
I said. I don't know. I'm purely agnostic on the matters of origins of the universe. I don't know, PERIOD. I don't have a theory.
You don't have anything to respect CL. because I don't speak on matters I don't know much about. That IS an option, you know.
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RE: Q about arguments for God's existence.
June 21, 2015 at 2:56 pm
(June 21, 2015 at 2:49 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: How do you estimate that?
How do you measure the improbability of the existence that there is a super natural element involved?
You look at the claim.
First of all, what the hell does supernatural mean?
Secondly, infinite regress is a problem for your creator. That's the hole in your theory.
Heads up: special pleading by saying 'it's god he can do whatever' doesn't cover it.
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